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Thread: Why are there no moron, sorry, mormon posters here

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Why does it say in John, that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life? BELIEVE! What does that word mean to you? Is believe not the same as FAITH?
    No it absolutely is not,
    It looks like I'm going to have to school you again... Or should I say Sunday School you.
    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
    So as you can see...
    If belief was enough, then the demons would be saved.

    Nor is faith alone enough for salvation...
    James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    Do you believe you can be saved by a dead faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    So don't tell me that this is a recent invention!!
    I'm sorry that this came as such a shock to you, but it is a modern invention. Even the Protestant Fathers believed that baptism, sacraments, and good works were required for salvation. Faith Alone has only been around for about 350 years. Even today Orthodox Christian (what you would consider a works based religion) still make up 65% of Christian. With that, only 50% of the remaining Protestants believe in a true Faith Alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Abraham was considered righteous because of his FAITH in God so go dust off your Bible and read and read with an open mind,...
    Once again you err, trying to make this into a Faith Alone verse. Here, let me continue your schooling.
    The Jews who were the first Christians were being chastised for requiring "The works of The Law" to gentile converts (do you understand what The Law means or do you need me to explain that as well?).
    Paul was logically pointing out that if someone can only be righteous by "the Law" [the laws of Moses] then how can they believe that Abraham was righteous if he lived before the law was given? Paul as not nullifying good works.

    How exactly was Abraham saved then. Well that is clear from those parts of the Bible you have not looked in....
    James 2:20-22 20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;


    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    for Mormons don't do their own thinking, for when your prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.
    Another misrepresentation based on AntiMormon nonsense...

    Joseph Smith, "We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

    "When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." (Priesthood, Millennial Star v.14 no.38 (13 November 1852), 594–95)

    Brigham Young "...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory,

    President Joseph F. Smith "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

    George Q. Cannon "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

    There is more if you want?
    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    MAN....what a load of manure! Oh and do ponder this one; a church that has all the answers, doesn't allow any questions. That is Mormonism, plain and simple. Try questioning some point of doctrine openly, say in Priesthood meeting and see how soon you find yourself in the Bishop's office.
    You are being contradictory... Mormons love when people ask questions! But you notice what you wrote? You said you "were questioning" or you questioned. Questioning is doubting... God NEVER works with doubt, only Satan does. This is why you failed.
    Last edited by theway; 03-18-2014 at 06:48 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No it absolutely is not,
    It looks like I'm going to have to school you again... Or should I say Sunday School you.
    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
    So as you can see...
    If belief was enough, then the demons would be saved.

    James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    Do you believe you can be saved by a dead faith?

    I'm sorry that this came as such a shock to you, but it is a modern invention. Even the Protestant Fathers believed that baptism, sacraments, and good works were required for salvation. Faith Alone has only been around for about 350 years. Even today Orthodox Christian (what you would consider a works based religion) still make up 65% of Christian. With that, only 50% of the remaining Protestants believe in a true Faith Alone.

    Once again you err, trying to make this into a Faith Alone verse. Here, let me continue your schooling.
    The Jews who were the first Christians were being chastised for requiring "The works of The Law" to gentile converts (do you understand what The Law means or do you need me to explain that as well?).
    Paul was logically pointing out that if someone can only be righteous by "the Law" [the laws of Moses] then how can they believe that Abraham was righteous if he lived before the law was given? Paul as not nullifying good works.

    How exactly was Abraham saved then. Well that is clear from those parts of the Bible you have not looked in....
    James 2:20-22 20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;




    Another misrepresentation based on AntiMormon nonsense...

    Joseph Smith, "We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

    "When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." (Priesthood, Millennial Star v.14 no.38 (13 November 1852), 59495)

    Brigham Young "...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory,

    President Joseph F. Smith "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

    George Q. Cannon "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

    There is more if you want?

    BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference. You as well only have a head knowledge but you are as the demons too.
    What you say is all good and fine but I know different....I lived it, I lived among you, having been a Mormon born and raised. I know how members are treated. I know that if a man is wealthy he is looked at favorably. I have seen how a woman who gave of herself to your church and in her time of need was ignored. So please don't patronize me with all your crap! I KNOW! It is shameful how members of your church treat one another, I've been on the receiving end of insensitive members. I've sat across from a Branch President asking for help for two small children who's mother was in the hospital with major depression and was alone having been divorced and the husband out of the picture. This woman and her girls were destitute and it was the dead of winter in N. Dakota. No gloves, boots a warm hat or a way for the one girl to button her coat. They had nothing!! I cut buttons off my own coat and sewed them onto that little girls so she could be warm when going to school. The Branch President told me, "there will be no help for those girls because, their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." I sat there shocked, I didn't even know what to say and left bewildered and ashamed of my church. It was then and there that I began to actually hate being a Mormon. How could my wealthy church deny help to young children and base it on what their mother did? And how could my church be so cold and calloused? This man should have gone to the hospital to see about this woman and see how she was doing, not turning his back on the needs of small children. SHAMEFUL! At that time James and I had very little ourselves. James had only two stripes at that time, as he served our country during Viet Nam with the Air Force. We lived in a one bedroom apartment and our son was only 9 months old, we kept his crib in a small walk in closet. So, theway, don't tell me that I don't know! You make me so angry I could scream! You come on here acting so smug and arrogant and it is that very attitude that turns me off about your church! So go your way, I have no more need to speak to you for your mind is closed, God has not chosen you to be part of his family due to your hardened heart. Your trust in an evil and mentally ill man has lead you down the wide road, which leads to destruction....it is the easy road. You have your secret ceremonies in your expensive temples, do your work for the dead even though it helps no one and Christ never taught anything about temple marriage, nothing. WHY? Go about thinking what you're doing is earning you brownie points with God and you'll gain your exaltation so you think. Keep believing in fairy tales if that is what you want but in the end all the wonderful things you've done won't amount to a hill of beans and God will tell you to depart from me, I never knew you! There will be a lot of crying and begging but it won't do you or anyone any good......it will be to late.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post

    BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference.
    But the heart is deceitful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post

    BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference. You as well only have a head knowledge but you are as the demons too.
    What you say is all good and fine but I know different....I lived it, I lived among you, having been a Mormon born and raised. I know how members are treated. I know that if a man is wealthy he is looked at favorably. I have seen how a woman who gave of herself to your church and in her time of need was ignored. So please don't patronize me with all your crap! I KNOW! It is shameful how members of your church treat one another, I've been on the receiving end of insensitive members. I've sat across from a Branch President asking for help for two small children who's mother was in the hospital with major depression and was alone having been divorced and the husband out of the picture. This woman and her girls were destitute and it was the dead of winter in N. Dakota. No gloves, boots a warm hat or a way for the one girl to button her coat. They had nothing!! I cut buttons off my own coat and sewed them onto that little girls so she could be warm when going to school. The Branch President told me, "there will be no help for those girls because, their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." I sat there shocked, I didn't even know what to say and left bewildered and ashamed of my church. It was then and there that I began to actually hate being a Mormon. How could my wealthy church deny help to young children and base it on what their mother did? And how could my church be so cold and calloused? This man should have gone to the hospital to see about this woman and see how she was doing, not turning his back on the needs of small children. SHAMEFUL! At that time James and I had very little ourselves. James had only two stripes at that time, as he served our country during Viet Nam with the Air Force. We lived in a one bedroom apartment and our son was only 9 months old, we kept his crib in a small walk in closet. So, theway, don't tell me that I don't know! You make me so angry I could scream! You come on here acting so smug and arrogant and it is that very attitude that turns me off about your church! So go your way, I have no more need to speak to you for your mind is closed, God has not chosen you to be part of his family due to your hardened heart. Your trust in an evil and mentally ill man has lead you down the wide road, which leads to destruction....it is the easy road. You have your secret ceremonies in your expensive temples, do your work for the dead even though it helps no one and Christ never taught anything about temple marriage, nothing. WHY? Go about thinking what you're doing is earning you brownie points with God and you'll gain your exaltation so you think. Keep believing in fairy tales if that is what you want but in the end all the wonderful things you've done won't amount to a hill of beans and God will tell you to depart from me, I never knew you! There will be a lot of crying and begging but it won't do you or anyone any good......it will be to late.
    LOL....


    A perfect example of the contradictory nature of AntiMormon Faith Aloners.

    They will not have anything to do with a church that requires good works...
    But they will reject a church because they didn't do good works...

    You couldn't make this type of comedy up.

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    there is value in the use of paragraphs people

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    So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
    And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

    Thats it!

    Just one act of faith and you have passed from death onto Life eternal.
    Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
    And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.

    So before men we are justified by works, for men judge the appearance of things they can see.
    but before God we are justified by faith, for God sees the heart

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
    And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

    Thats it!
    Please..... Even you do not believe that!
    The proof is simple.... I sincerely believe is His Son, am I therefore saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Just one act of faith and you have passed from death onto Life eternal.
    Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
    And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.
    You just got through talking about not adding to God's Word, and then you go about creating a whole theology, dogma and religion around a Thief on a Cross.
    The whole extent of what we know about the person on the cross, (we are not even sure he was a thief) was that Jesus told him that he would be in the spirit world with Him at some point (since there is no puncuation in the Greek we don't even know if Jesus meant "Truely I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" or "Truely I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise") even that part of the scripture was a guess by the translators. Most believe that because we know Christ was not in Heaven for three days, then the comma should come after today.
    LOL.....
    The irony is that for the LDS, either way works, but to Faith Alone believers, neither way works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Please..... Even you do not believe that!
    The proof is simple.... I sincerely believe is His Son, am I therefore saved?


    You just got through talking about not adding to God's Word, and then you go about creating a whole theology, dogma and religion around a Thief on a Cross.
    The whole extent of what we know about the person on the cross, (we are not even sure he was a thief) was that Jesus told him that he would be in the spirit world with Him at some point (since there is no puncuation in the Greek we don't even know if Jesus meant "Truely I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" or "Truely I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise") even that part of the scripture was a guess by the translators. Most believe that because we know Christ was not in Heaven for three days, then the comma should come after today.
    LOL.....
    The irony is that for the LDS, either way works, but to Faith Alone believers, neither way works.
    You take a lot onto yourself don't you? In Matthew 27:38, it says, "there were two thieves crucified with him (Jesus) when on the right hand, one on the left." Man, are you so blind as to not see what is written in black and white? We know for a fact through this very verse that the other men hanging on crosses next to Christ were indeed thieves! Christ never used the words. "Spirit world" to these two men, he told the one, "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." "Verily I say unto thee." This was no blanket statement or impersonal response. The Lord made a personal promise to one who had a particular need. A man who understood that the punishment that he was receiving was what he deserved but he also knew that Christ didn't deserve his punishment and recognized who He was, and called him "Lord". Jesus didn’t condemn or judge this thief for the crimes he had committed. Because of his recognition and acceptance of Christ, our Lord accepted him based upon his faith. Yes, faith alone! Those two words that have thrown you for a loop and you rail against them. There's nothing hard about the gospel of Christ. There is hope for all humanity in this simple statement. None are beyond the reach and compassion of Christ. None have lived so wickedly or gone beyond the Lord’s ability to save. He will turn none away who come in faith, believing. I am glad that I was accepted of Him, having nothing to offer. I worship an awesome God and praise Him daily, giving him the honor and glory that He deserves. That is today's Sunday school lesson, you should come more often though.






    Last edited by neverending; 03-19-2014 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I answered your questions stating beforehand that you were not interested in having your questioned answered.
    I have no intention of reading your reply because I know my point was made.
    You only question as it gives you a platform in which to rant on.

    What worse is that you have no idea about the gospel or what Christ taught.
    When your answers give two contradicting responses there is no answer other than you want things both ways.. What ever people say to you is fine in your doctrine.. Is salvation by God's grace through faith and not of works. Sure but you can't be saved without doing good works.. Does that make sense? And the Lord you God is one Lord, except that there are three Gods and not one.. God spoke to the people in the past through prophets but today He specks through Jesus except that His church is directed by a prophet.. You have talked a lot, but the problem is you have said NOTHING..

    When you finally come to the knowledge of the true message of God then maybe you will see what the Gospel really is.. The good News that God have given His Son as an atonement for our sin if we come to Hm in faith asking to become His child.. To know for sure we have become acceptable to God and when He calls us Home we are guaranteed a place in His presence.. IHS jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I answered your questions stating beforehand that you were not interested in having your questioned answered.
    I have no intention of reading your reply because I know my point was made.
    You only question as it gives you a platform in which to rant on.

    What worse is that you have no idea about the gospel or what Christ taught.
    If James has no idea about the gospel of Christ, how about you telling him and myself what you think it really is? I would like to know. Who knows, my idea all these years could be wrong...I doubt it but it would be nice to hear what you think the gospel is that Christ taught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    LOL... see what I mean....
    AntiMormons don't ask questions to know answers, or understand doctrine.
    They question
    Then they ask rhetorical questions
    Then they question one's integrity with backhanded insults

    There certainly is no questioning of their motives or the spirit which drives them.
    We ask questions to get you to see that the LDS gospel is not the Gospel that Jesus gave us, not the Gospel that Paul taught but instead is a different gospel. We already know the answers you will give to us. Answers that are NOT found i the Bible but are taught in error by their leaders from Smith down to today. Smith taught there there are three Gods, Today mormon leadership agree with that teaching that saying that Jesus is the Christ, the literal Son of God, which I agree that He is, but He is also the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace, the Word that was with the Father from the beginning, the Word that is God. From those titles this the LDS recoil. We ask questions that forces you to look at the Bible and stop cherry picking your doctrine but accept it all. Yes Jesus is the literal Son of God having had His flesh created by God within the womb of His mother Mary. He is also the God that created ALL things visible, and invisible. You have to have a doctrine that allows the Bible to be God's truth as it teaches tht the Lord our God is one Lord and still allows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three separate persons to be that one true God.. Moronism just doesn't allow that.. Iy has change it's doctrine into a polytheistic belief that the Lords our Gods are three Lords..

    You will noticed we have never made up a scripture where we insult your teachers.. I don't believe that we have ever insulted the bishops of your wards. but that didn't stop Smith from putting words in the mouth of Jesus to call our local Church pastors corrupt. Teachers of the doctrine of men. And here you are crying boo hoo because we ask you questions that you can't and haven't even attempted to answer with the Bible.. I know why you have made personal argument for your position.. It's because you have no Biblical argument to support what you teach.. I know you hater the questions.. If you opened your eyes you would understand why we ask them.. If you could question Christianity for any position it hold such as the eternal security of the believer i am sure you would point it out.. But there is none.. You have tried to do so in quoting Hebrews 5:9 but shrink from the facts that in our selves NO ONE OBEYS HIM. That righteousness is only available through Him in His work of imputing those who believe with His righteousness (Romans 4:22-24). So show us all again how the Christianity we teach here is false and mormonism is correct.. That would be something to observe.. IHS jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
    And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

    Thats it!

    Just one act of faith and you have passed from death onto Life eternal.
    Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
    And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.

    So before men we are justified by works, for men judge the appearance of things they can see.
    but before God we are justified by faith, for God sees the heart
    Part of my job around here is to go over the new posts, look for any issues, and pay attention to any new Private Messages sent to the Forum Staff, as well other duties.
    Along the way I like to keep an eye out for the topics that are being looked at my non-registered guests.

    Now for some reason this topic comes up a lot in the viewing of new and unregistered guests here?....
    Many of such guests arrive here each day due to a GOOGLE SEARCH that they were on that had our WM Forum pop up on.

    I can understand that,,,

    But I don't really understand how this topic keeps being the hit on such searches?
    The name "moron" at the beginning might have something to do with it perhaps?

    But it seems more likely that what is going on all the time is that people that know about this topic and this website from past time here, are returning again and again to go over the past posts.





    Anyway, I have no objection to any of this visiting regardless for whatever reason brings people here.

    This site is up and running in the Name of Walter Martin as a way for people with questions to come and seek answers on their own without anyone else knowing that are are searching.
    It is a great place to come and find information.

    The way this site has been able to keep older posts and topics up for others to see and learn from is such a great resource for Mormons who have started to have doubts about Smith and the whole religion they are in.



    Take care,
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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