Christians in general or just the critics of LDS?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"The spin of keeping the best face on Smith's death."

My question is, what does it really matter? Does it change doctrine?

well in that specific case, the false story of Smith's behavior kinda actually becomes the doctrine....

it feeds the myth.
it maintains the spin.

If you tell a big fat false story long enough it has been shown to be clear that the "lock-step" nature of the members of a cult will not even dream of questioning it...

in fact after a while I believe that what the leadership of the Mormons are really seeking is that when a christian (such as myself) points out the false story to the Mormon, the knee-**** reaction of the Mormon is, "So? Whats the big deal about that?

this ability to put aside a person's normal ability to think for themselves and see truth is replaced with the need to maintain the "spin control" that always ends with their church looking better....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"You don't want the youth leader teaching something opposite to what the Pastor is teaching, right?

I want the youth teacher teaching the truth...regardless of what the preacher is teaching....

But this need to "maintain the cover story" sneaks down and gets in the way of Bible students learning the truth.
this is how Cults maintain their members...they slant the truth and then teach that even questioning the slanted truth is wrong.
this is how we end up with Cults that teach, (Of all things get this) that it is wrong to question the leadership of the Cult.

Once you make questioning the leadership a sin, you guarantee that the leadership will go off the rails....Jim Jones style.

This is how Smith was able to take the wives of other men to his bed.
You get people so mixed up that they forget how to defend themselves from theological abusive teachers...

Once you got grown men handing over their wives to their religious leaders you got yourself believers who no longer know truth from lie....they have lost their ability to think for themselves...


this is why we see men in the pulpit saying that its ok to sleep with other men's wives, and you have down in the basement school teachers teaching their students that "Sure, it's God's will, look at David"



I on the other hand , value truth over uniformity....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You don't want the youth leader teaching something opposite to what the Pastor is teaching, right?

I know you dont see it as such.....(and that's too bad)

But when I look at your statement all I see is the terrible results that the Mormon teachers have had on you and other Mormons....

It's simply a wrong way to look at your faith walk......

It's 180' degrees wrong...

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I know you dont see it as such.....(and that's too bad)

But when I look at your statement all I see is the terrible results that the Mormon teachers have had on you and other Mormons....

It's simply a wrong way to look at your faith walk......

It's 180' degrees wrong...

So, do YOU want the youth leader teaching something different than the Pastor?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So, do YOU want the youth leader teaching something different than the Pastor?

some where in my answer I think I answered this....

I dont give a rat's **** what the pastor is teaching if it's in error.

I find ZERO MERIT in a church that pats itself on the back for being "100% united" if what they are teaching is against what the bible teaches...

Bible Students rely on we who are older in the faith to p*** on truth....we do them no service if we p*** on what we know is wrong or slanted just because it's in agreement with what the pastor says and we only want to maintain the "spin control" that our church is always united ...


I dont know if you notice this about me yet, but I am not afraid to criticize errors and where people teach counter to the word of god, no matter the fact that on most issues the same person and i always agree.

Error is error, and you dont do any student a favor by pretending that being united is better than being right.

[alanmolstad]

Unless you are free in your own mind to stand up for what you see clearly taught in the bible, you are "dead"

Your faith is dead.

Your salvation is dead.

your whole religion is dead.

But if you are able to stand up for yourself, confront errors, and just get up and walk out when you see people going off the rails with their crazy need at spin control, then you make your faith "Alive!"

Your salvation story becomes a living story.

your religion becomes alive, and personal....between you and your Lord.(as it was always meant to be by the way)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Unless you are free in your own mind to stand up for what you see clearly taught in the bible, you are "dead"

Your faith is dead.

Your salvation is dead.

your whole religion is dead.

But if you are able to stand up for yourself, confront errors, and just get up and walk out when you see people going off the rails with their crazy need at spin control, then you make your faith "Alive!"

Your salvation story becomes a living story.

your religion becomes alive, and personal....between you and your Lord.(as it was always meant to be by the way)

Look, here is the deal...
Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

How will your church's leadership ever turn around?

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

the truth is that it's ours....
They will never correct themselves.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

some where in my answer I think I answered this....

I dont give a rat's **** what the pastor is teaching if it's in error.

I find ZERO MERIT in a church that pats itself on the back for being "100% united" if what they are teaching is against what the bible teaches...

Ok, so the united on the essentials means nothing to you?

I'd like you to point me to the church that teaches 100% truth from the Bible. Now, you have to be careful, because there may be others that will say they teach 100% truth but the doctrines may be different.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Ok, so the united on the essentials means nothing to you?

.

You keep asking the same question in different ways....I feel like I am supposed to answer the same question in different ways too?

Is there a "heart of the matter" that you want to get to?

[alanmolstad]

tell you what....I have asked a general question above that i kinda skipped over...But Im going to ask you to personally answer it...

one moment...

[alanmolstad]

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)


Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)


Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

Well, there are too many possible answers.

Whose to say I'm right?

Whose to say I have the right to try and correct the leadership?

Why does it matter if I correct the leadership. In modern Christianity, I could just start my own church.

But, to answer your question, I would say that it would be me, but I wouldn't take it on alone. I'd consult with others first to determine if they agreed with me or not.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

But, to answer your question, I would say that it would be me,.

Although you seem to need to layer your answer underneath a pile of "buts"....You yet, surprisingly have given me the correct answer.

Don't let Anyone tell you different!

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)
Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

..............
God's?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

..............
God's?

a bit uncertain?

Is that the answer you want to hold at?

This is not a race...in many ways the question is mostly just a way to help the person see what relationship they have with the truth.....Do they search for it?...do they ask others for it?...do they simply react to whatever some person tells them the truth is this week?

Yes, clearly I agree with Snow patrol on his reasoning...
I think that in the end, it's up to us ....

"We" are the ones that have to remain vigilant.




the problem with this answer?....It points out that we simply cant shrug-off the blame when the leadership of our church fall into error.
We cant just say, "Well, what can a guy do?" and think thats the end of it.

When you come to the conclusion that you are required to always stand up for the truth you cant then hide behind mom's skirt like a little child and hope the "problem" goes away on it's own."Perhaps God will fix it?"..."Perhaps God will send some type of important guy to set things right?", etc,etc,etc

Sometimes , when if you truly see that the leadership of your church has gone off the deep end, you got to stand up....and as Ronald Reagan always suggested "To vote with your feet"

Stand up, turn , and walk out.




if the truth is important to you, if it's the thing you hold most dear, then the topic of "church unity" becomes a moot point.
You will start to see "What does it matter if a church is united if its united in error?"

"We" are the guardians of truth.
"We" preserve the right to seek truth no matter who would take that right away from us.
"We" are the answer...

And don't let anyone tell you different!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So James, do we just sit and do nothing. We have no responsibility for our lives?

It would seem that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle James both show the believer their duty in their Christian walk.. Paul says:

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


And James

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Both Paul and James call the Christian into service.. Not to gain salvation we both know that we are neither saved by faith or works but by His Grace.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So James, do we just sit and do nothing. We have no responsibility for our lives?

If we are children of God in Jesus, then like Him we are to be about our Father's business.. So like Paul taught we need to do Good works that He has before established that we should walk in (Eph 2:10), and what James taught That we don't show preference for the rich, and that we feed the hungry, cloth the naked and help the widow and the orphan.. But we must remember these works show our faith. It is faith wherein the grace God is accessed unto salvation.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

a bit uncertain?

Is that the answer you want to hold at?

You still holding on that answer?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?

I seem to remember a p***age in Matthew that says "by the mouths of two or three witnesses. . ."

Is it mean, rude, or insincere to point out the false beliefs of others who seem to believe as their religion teaches?

Or is it mean, rude, or insincere to point out the false doctrines of false religions?

I don't think so. . .

in Jesus,
fish