When truth changes.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles


When I talk to a member of a Cult, one of the things you notice is that when the other person starts to see something that they did not know before, they race back to their Cult's leadership to find the answer.

They never race to the bible.

They dont trust their own ability to read and understand the Bible, that is because the Cult leadership has taught them that the order of things is - God, to the Cult leaders, to You....

this is why when a member of a Cult starts to see for themselves and starts to see that they cant trust the Cult's leaders, they also start to feel like a boat without an rudder.
They dont know where to turn to for guidance because they have come to always see their leadership as God's only "channel" for truth.

The problem is that the member of the Cult is even more so dependent on the leadership for truth because the so-called 'truth" that the Cult teaches has a nasty tendency to change from time to time.

This ability for the taught truths to change overnight makes the members of the Cult that much more so dependent on the leadership for truth.

They dont dare stop looking to the Cult for truth because they never know when a new truth is about to come out.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles


When I talk to a member of a Cult, one of the things you notice is that when the other person starts to see something that they did not know before, they race back to their Cult's leadership to find the answer.

They never race to the bible.

They dont trust their own ability to read and understand the Bible, that is because the Cult leadership has taught them that the order of things is - God, to the Cult leaders, to You....

this is why when a member of a Cult starts to see for themselves and starts to see that they cant trust the Cult's leaders, they also start to feel like a boat without an rudder.
They dont know where to turn to for guidance because they have come to always see their leadership as God's only "channel" for truth.

The problem is that the member of the Cult is even more so dependent on the leadership for truth because the so-called 'truth" that the Cult teaches has a nasty tendency to change from time to time.

This ability for the taught truths to change overnight makes the members of the Cult that much more so dependent on the leadership for truth.

They dont dare stop looking to the Cult for truth because they never know when a new truth is about to come out.

So let me ask you something. In the situation you provided in the other thread you gave an example of what is someone's responsibility if they discovered something that the leadership was teaching was not correct. I'd like to expand that for a second. In the example, you suggested that after much studying a person discovers that what the leadership was teaching was incorrect. Let's suppose for a second that the person making this discovery was a faithful member for years and in full agreement with the leadership. Then, supposedly after studying they have come to this realization that the leadership is not correct. So here are my questions....

1. Is this new truth? The person knew the truth previously for years.

2. How does this person know for certainty that what he discovered really is the truth?

[alanmolstad]

new?....a new truth?.

well....lets say you were in a church that held to a teaching unknown before.
like.....

like the JWs with their teaching that Christ returned already...but invisibly.

so lets say that is a teaching of your church that you now think is in error.
You can support your view that the teaching is wrong based on many things.....but in the end you simply think that the teaching is dead wrong....you also see that this one teaching is the very heart of many other teachings taught by the leadership as fact.....but now you believe the whole thing is a house of cards that needs to fall...


who is this person that needs to take a stand against error?......... it' s you.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So let me ask you something.

2. How does this person know for certainty that what he discovered really is the truth?

remember how when Paul would teach that the Bareenes would hear what Paul taught then opened their bible to see if what Paul said was true.


this is our example for today.
the teachings we hear from the leadership should be put to the test of scripture ...

[alanmolstad]

im on my phone now....on the road....so my answers should be viewed with understanding that i will say more later... lol

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So let me ask you something. In the situation you provided in the other thread you gave an example of what is someone's responsibility if they discovered something that the leadership was teaching was not correct. I'd like to expand that for a second. In the example, you suggested that after much studying a person discovers that what the leadership was teaching was incorrect. Let's suppose for a second that the person making this discovery was a faithful member for years and in full agreement with the leadership. Then, supposedly after studying they have come to this realization that the leadership is not correct. So here are my questions....

1. Is this new truth? The person knew the truth previously for years.

2. How does this person know for certainty that what he discovered really is the truth?

I'd like to try and answer. May I say, how do you know that the things you've been taught all your life are true? You say they are, only because that's all you've known. And why when I studied Mormonism so many years ago and found it wanting and out of line with Biblical teachings, that what I then learned and believed was true? How do we know anyone's beliefs are true? If someone wants something bad enough, they can believe it. All humans want acceptance, love and feelings of belonging. Those are strong emotional needs and many will believe anything to fill those needs. All anyone can do is read the scriptures, compare what is written there with what they're being taught and if what is being taught doesn't line up with scripture, then stop listening, leave and find a church that teaches ONLY what is within God's word. Any deviation away from God's word should never be acceptable.

[alanmolstad]

the thing with people in charge however is that getting power over people is fun.
leadership tends to want to be the lone voice of a church....
leadership does not like to share.

so what happens a lot is that leadership goes from helping people come to the truth to seeing itself as the only channel where people can seek the truth.

this is where a church turns and starts to act like a Cult.

A cult will tell its members that they lack the ability to find truth on their own.
A cult will teach its members that all truths come to the members Only via the leadership.

When the member of a cult believes all truth comes down only from the cult leadership it puts the person as being now held slave to the leadership.

Without being in good standing with the leadership the person is lost......with no way to learn what "new Truth" God may be sending down each day.


this is why we have to protect our right to seek truth on our own......

[alanmolstad]

so when you talk to a member of a Cult you cant think that you two can just dive into the bible to see what it teaches....

you cant do that at first because the cult member does not trust their own ability to read the bible on their own.
So helping the person see that they have the Right to read the bible on their own to seek truth is *** One.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so when you talk to a member of a Cult you cant think that you two can just dive into the bible to see what it teaches....

you cant do that at first because the cult member does not trust their own ability to read the bible on their own.
So helping the person see that they have the Right to read the bible on their own to seek truth is *** One.

It is not that I don't trust my own ability, I'm just following what the Bible says.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."
Proverbs 3:5-6

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the thing with people in charge however is that getting power over people is fun.
leadership tends to want to be the lone voice of a church....
leadership does not like to share.

so what happens a lot is that leadership goes from helping people come to the truth to seeing itself as the only channel where people can seek the truth.

this is where a church turns and starts to act like a Cult.

A cult will tell its members that they lack the ability to find truth on their own.
A cult will teach its members that all truths come to the members Only via the leadership.

When the member of a cult believes all truth comes down only from the cult leadership it puts the person as being now held slave to the leadership.

Which is why I really like that we are told to go to God with every question we have.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Which is why I really like that we are told to go to God with every question we have.

the Bible's example for us to follow is seen at Acts 17:11

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


Not only do each of us have the RIGHT to search the scriptures on our own to find the truth, we have this as our Standard!

We have the "duty" to search the bible on our own to conform that what our church leadership is saying is true or not?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Bible's example for us to follow is seen at Acts 17:11

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


Not only do each of us have the RIGHT to search the scriptures on our own to find the truth, we have this as our Standard!

We have the "duty" to search the bible on our own to conform that what our church leadership is saying is true or not?

Ok, so if the leaders have used the same Bible as you have used to determine truth, then who has the actual truth?

For example, don't Trinitarians and Modalists both use the same Bible to come to the basis for their views?

[alanmolstad]

Im talking about You...

Im talking about me too....all of us.

we each have not only the RIGHT to search the scriptures, but the duty to do so.

I find NO MERIT at all in a church patting itself on the back for having 100% unity on teachings, if the teachings are what I know to be against what the bible teaches.

100% unity while being totally wrong is not much to brag about.


But church leadership will try to take a position over both of us .
church leadership will try to slide in between the believer and the lord.
Suddenly the very people we turned to for "help" finding truth take it upon themselves to teach that "they" are the only channel for finding truth.

they went from being helpful "***istants" to Cultist "dictators".


What Im saying is that when we see this start to happen we need to vote with our feet....

rise up
turn
walk out...



so the answer to your first question is - "You have the right to determine this"

You have this right.
I know, I know that many in leadership will try to teach us both that we have no 'right" to read the Bible seeking truth apart from their guidance.

But we have to stand up sometimes in defense of what we see is truth, and that means we have to come to the conclusion that this is our "right" to do so...


we have the "right" to disagree........

[alanmolstad]

so....what really am I talking about?

Im saying that each of us has to always be aware of two things....

#1 - we have the Right and duty to seek truth on our own, and to defend truth when and where we feel the need to do so.

#2 - They will not like it....They will try to take this "Right" away from us and replace it with only unquestioning servitude.



But we know we have to be always ready to stand up to error.
we know that the church is always in danger of teaching false teachings if good men sit on their hands and do nothing while false teachings splash about freely.

So, this means that if one day we are in a study of a text, and we come to the carefull decision that what we are being taught by the leadership is in error?....then we have to be ready stand on our convictions.

"But Alan, this teaching is the teaching of the whole church"

"It's still wrong"

"But Alan, this teaching came down from the very lips of the Prophet himself"

"It does not matter if it came down from the lips of Peter,Paul Mary and Jesus, if its wrong its wrong, and it needs to go"

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im talking about You...

Im talking about me too....all of us.

we each have not only the RIGHT to search the scriptures, but the duty to do so.

I wholeheartedly agree. However, that doesn't diminish my question of who has the actual truth. Are we each the deciders of our own truth?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I wholeheartedly agree. ......

Shhhh....never let james see that!...He will think we are up to something

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

It is not that I don't trust my own ability, I'm just following what the Bible says.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."
Proverbs 3:5-6

How do you know Proverbs 3:5-6. Was translated correctly?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im saying that each of us has to always be aware of two things....

#1 - we have the Right and duty to seek truth on our own, and to defend truth when and where we feel the need to do so.

There was a man named Joseph Smith who felt the same way.

#2 - They will not like it....They will try to take this "Right" away from us and replace it with only unquestioning servitude.

That is what Joseph Smith experienced. The "established" religion did not like that he sought truth on his own. They wanted him to just remain in unquestioning servitude to the prevailing ideas about God.

But we know we have to be always ready to stand up to error.

Joseph Smith believed he was doing that.

we know that the church is always in danger of teaching false teachings if good men sit on their hands and do nothing while false teachings splash about freely.

Joseph Smith believed that the prevailing churches were teaching false teachings, and that people were sitting on their hands and doing nothing about it.

"But Alan, this teaching is the teaching of the whole church"

Trinitarianism is what the whole church was teaching in the 1800s.

"It's still wrong"

Amen.

"But Alan, this teaching came down from the very lips of the Prophet himself"
"It does not matter if it came down from the lips of Peter,Paul Mary and Jesus, if its wrong its wrong, and it needs to go"

Interesting statement. So if Trinitarianism is wrong, it is wrong and needs to go.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

..... Are we each the deciders of our own truth?

I will tell you a story:

I worked with a JW .
We debated religion every day for years and years.
He had family high up in the Watchtower...He took pride in the number of Hours he went door to door.
so he was a 'true believer" in the JW and in the watchtower.

But I was his friend and we worked on stuff together on the weekends, and one time I had him over to help me fix something in the yard , and we were talking about the Bible.

I got my bible out and showed him a verse that really challenged the watchtower's teachings.
He started to go out to his car to get his little JW books that he always carried.

I told him,"You dont need them little books, you got the Bible in your hands, That is where the truth is found!"

Well, he tried to open his bible and read what I was pointing to, but he was so frustrated...
You see he was not used to doing a Bible study without the guidance of his little JW books.

He started to get up to get his books again and I once again said that "You dont need them books to find the truth!"

But he just shrugged and kept getting up, telling me, "I got to use them"

He came back, and was all ready to go now...boy he was all fired up!

...You see his little books had every answer for him to use all ready to copy word for word.

I knew the whole effort was pointless now.

it was pointless because the guy was totally convinced that he had no right to study the bible on his own, nor had the smarts to study the bible on his own.

the Watchtower had totally convinced him that he was LOST without their help.

What i have learned over time is that all CULTS do this same mind-*** on their members.
The CULT will teach the member that "Alone you are Lost"

the Cult will teach the member that to be apart from the leadership of the Cult is to be apart from God.

the leadership and God become the same ...you cant disagree with one and not the other.


what Im saying on this topic is that you have the right to disagree.....
Im saying you have the right to seek truth on your own.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what Im saying on this topic is that you have the right to disagree.....
Im saying you have the right to seek truth on your own.

Again, we are in agreement.

However, you aren't answering my questions. Who/what decides the ultimate truth? Do we each decide what is true for us?

[alanmolstad]

What Im saying on this topic is that you have the right to disagree.


Im saying you have the right to seek truth on your own.


Do you think this way too?
Do you believe you have a right to disagree with church leadership?
Do you believe you have the right to open the Bible and put to the test all things you hear, so that you know what to hold fast to?


Do we each decide what is true for us?
Who has the *** of clearing my driveway of snow?......Me or God?

I got 6" inches of fresh snow to deal with, the kids got to get to school, the rest of us got to get to work....people are counting on getting out.

So am I to roll over and bed and say, "it's God's snow, let him deal with it"?

Should I get down on my knees and pray real hard for the next 2 hours that God cleans the snow so that we can get out"....

Or....is this why I was moved to get that new snow-****er this year?

The answer is that we should get off our lazy buts and get busy doing our ***.

and, Seeking truth is our ***.

[alanmolstad]

You and I have so many great advatages over others in the world.

We can point across the room to where a bible sits.
we can go to a christian book store and take home all the bibles we can carry.
we have it easy.

but a lot of this world the story is very different.
there are lands on this earth that never hear the name of "Jesus"
they do not have a bible....they never will hear of the Christian faith.

But what Im saying is that there is a unity we have with such people, in that both us that have it easy, and they who suffer so all still have the same "right" to seek truth on our own.

its a right we should hold most dear.
its a duty we should not seek to avoid.

And God tells us that "If you search for me, you will find me"

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What Im saying on this topic is that you have the right to disagree.


Im saying you have the right to seek truth on your own.


Do you think this way too?

Absolutely.

Do you believe you have a right to disagree with church leadership?

Absolutely

Do you believe you have the right to open the Bible and put to the test all things you hear, so that you know what to hold fast to?

Absolutely

Do we each decide what is true for us?
Who has the *** of clearing my driveway of snow?......Me or God?

I got 6" inches of fresh snow to deal with, the kids got to get to school, the rest of us got to get to work....people are counting on getting out.

So am I to roll over and bed and say, "it's God's snow, let him deal with it"?

Should I get down on my knees and pray real hard for the next 2 hours that God cleans the snow so that we can get out"....

Or....is this why I was moved to get that new snow-****er this year?

The answer is that we should get off our lazy buts and get busy doing our ***.

and, Seeking truth is our ***.

:-) Alanmolstad, I'm really trying hard to follow your answer on this but I just don't see how that relates to my question.


Really what I'm getting at is.... what happens when two people independently reach different conclusions after reading the same Bible? Who decides which one of these people has the actual truth? And yes, I agree they have the right to disagree and they each have the right to search for truth. :-)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

However, you aren't answering my questions.

Well.....I have posted about 50Million words answering your questions in a manner I felt at the time was enlightened....

So.....I gave it a good try..

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Absolutely.

:-)

Do you believe you believe Joseph Smith jr. was a true prophet and also believe the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and still be a member of the LDSinc. In good standing?