When truth changes.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where do you take it to?

I'd sure like to tell you where you can take it, or should I say, where you can put it!!!

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where do you take it to?

So you think this is funny? GREAT! Have fun, but not at my expense, BYE, have a nice life!

[alanmolstad]

It's so hard for the eye to read a big wad of text on a computer when there are no breaks for the eye to rest at...nothing to show the person when one topic/subject ends and another begins......
And the use of bigger yet thinner text is of no help at all as far as being able to stay on-track to a persons point in what is a monster long paragraph.....

[alanmolstad]

another thing you see with members of a Cult is that while they say they might believe in the Bible, but what the Cult means by "the Bible" is not really the same thing as what a Christian means,

Most Cults know that as the bible stands as written they would have a problem finding support for many of the false teachings of the Cult.
The result is that many Cults have their own version of the bible that they place into the hands of members of the Cult.

It might be just a normal Bible text but with the addition of the Cult's footnotes and other "bible helps' that help the Cults members maintain the teachings that the bible does not actually support.

Another way the Cult may handle the problem it has with the bible is to come out with their own "translation"
the Cult's efforts here is to change the wording on the bible on the verses that they find are the most in disagreement with their false teachings.
This is another good way for the Cult to appear to be like Christians and use the Bible, while at the same time be changing the text of the Bible to agree with the Cults different teachings.

The 3rd way a Cult may use to handle the Bible problem is to simply come out with their own different holy Book that they place before the members of the Cult as if it were truly equal to the normal Bible.
When you have ditched the bible and come up with a whole new one you can have a great advantage in being able to start from scratch and write things into the Cult's bible that fully support the Cult's teachings.


If response to all this, the christian only has the Bible.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I wholeheartedly agree. However, that doesn't diminish my question of who has the actual truth. Are we each the deciders of our own truth?

Do you own a copy of the Bible? I don't even care if it's the JSP.. The Gospel is still in there. That would mean that Snow you have the truth. Whether you believe that it is the truth or not you have it in your possession.. That truth is made clear even in the JSP.. 1. God is one Lord.. 2. There are three Persons all called God in the Bible, yet even Jesus confirmed that God is One LORD.. 3. All of mankind is in sin. 4. Jesus paid the full price for sin. 5. To access the grace of God made available through the work Jesus did in payment for our sin, we must believe in Him..

I think you have said that few people hold those views but every Christian I have met online holds those Biblical statements as doctrine.. Can you point to those that don't? IHS jim

[John T]

Originally Posted by neverending

Well, I can see that all you men stick together, thanks for nothing! I am still offended and find alan has no right to change anyone's post! I guess I will go away then since my way of posting is causing all you men problems. Poor babies!

You have something against men???

In all seriousness, it is not a gender issue, and FYI, I agreed more with you than I have with Alan. It was a READABILITY ISSUE that I addressed. As to Alan changing your post, I l know nothing about that, and properly you need to address it with Jill, and not on the open forum.

Here in that same post is a clear statement about my agreement with you about what Alan has done:
However, your complaint about Alan's playing "moderator" are quite justified IMHO. I have had my "tiffs" with him about that.

As a result of what I posted, I cannot see any support for what you posted to me in complaint.

Is it possible to address the OP now?

[alanmolstad]

some people's kids!

[John T]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I wholeheartedly agree. However, that doesn't diminish my question of who has the actual truth. Are we each the deciders of our own truth?

There is no such thing as "relative truth" as you seem to suggest.

That is because truth is propositional in that it says, "This is true, and that does not conform to truth."

Truth is its own self indicator in the fact that once truth is stated, further discussion is irrelevant.

Truth is also not contradictory due to its ontological nature. or one to state that there is "Mormon truth" and there is "Christian truth" which can be contradictory, yet remain true is fallacious and impossible argumentation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

Is it possible to address the OP now?

"When I talk to a member of a Cult, one of the things you notice is that when the other person starts to see something that they did not know before, they race back to their Cult's leadership to find the answer.

They never race to the bible.

They dont trust their own ability to read and understand the Bible, that is because the Cult leadership has taught them that the order of things is - God, to the Cult leaders, to You....

this is why when a member of a Cult starts to see for themselves and starts to see that they cant trust the Cult's leaders, they also start to feel like a boat without an rudder.
They dont know where to turn to for guidance because they have come to always see their leadership as God's only "channel" for truth.

The problem is that the member of the Cult is even more so dependent on the leadership for truth because the so-called 'truth" that the Cult teaches has a nasty tendency to change from time to time.

This ability for the taught truths to change overnight makes the members of the Cult that much more so dependent on the leadership for truth.

They dont dare stop looking to the Cult for truth because they never know when a new truth is about to come out. '

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"When I talk to a member of a Cult, one of the things you notice is that when the other person starts to see something that they did not know before, they race back to their Cult's leadership to find the answer.

They never race to the bible.

They dont trust their own ability to read and understand the Bible, that is because the Cult leadership has taught them that the order of things is - God, to the Cult leaders, to You....

this is why when a member of a Cult starts to see for themselves and starts to see that they cant trust the Cult's leaders, they also start to feel like a boat without an rudder.
They dont know where to turn to for guidance because they have come to always see their leadership as God's only "channel" for truth.

The problem is that the member of the Cult is even more so dependent on the leadership for truth because the so-called 'truth" that the Cult teaches has a nasty tendency to change from time to time.

This ability for the taught truths to change overnight makes the members of the Cult that much more so dependent on the leadership for truth.

They dont dare stop looking to the Cult for truth because they never know when a new truth is about to come out. '

I find it interesting how a TBM can justify the LDSinc. Complete reversal on such absolute LDSinc. Truths. Such as polygamy for Exaltation. This was one of Joseph Smith jr. invention that lead to his death, yet LDSinc. today totally disregard this one doctrinal LDSinc. Principle.

[alanmolstad]

Another thing...

The Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the 7th Dayers, and Armstrong-ism all have a "truth" that changes.

This means that the teachings of such religions of 100 years ago would have changed so much by now that if a person from a 100 or so years ago were to show up and try to teach the same as what he knew from his time , they would be kicked out for it.

You cant be a Mormon from the age when Mormonism started and try to fit-in with modern Mormonism...

The founder of the Mormonism or the founder of the JW's etc, would get themselves booted out of their religion if they tried to teach their old teachings in the modern religions that they started.

This is one of the ways the modern Cults keep a firm hold on their members.
The member of a Cult feels the need to stick close to the Cult because of the ability of the teachings held by the Cult to change over night.

From day to day the Cult member is never really sure that what believes as the "Truth" today will still be promoted as the "truth " tomorrow.

This also means that each member of a Cult you talk to, no matter how strongly they protest that "They have the truth" also knows deep down in their hearts that what they tell people is the "Truth" could change without warning, and actually get them kicked-out of their church in the future....

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Another thing...

The Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the 7th Dayers, and Armstrong-ism all have a "truth" that changes.

This means that the teachings of such religions of 100 years ago would have changed so much by now that if a person from a 100 or so years ago were to show up and try to teach the same as what he knew from his time , they would be kicked out for it.

You cant be a Mormon from the age when Mormonism started and try to fit-in with modern Mormonism...

The founder of the Mormonism or the founder of the JW's etc, would get themselves booted out of their religion if they tried to teach their old teachings in the modern religions that they started.

This is one of the ways the modern Cults keep a firm hold on their members.
The member of a Cult feels the need to stick close to the Cult because of the ability of the teachings held by the Cult to change over night.

From day to day the Cult member is never really sure that what believes as the "Truth" today will still be promoted as the "truth " tomorrow.

This also means that each member of a Cult you talk to, no matter how strongly they protest that "They have the truth" also knows deep down in their hearts that what they tell people is the "Truth" could change without warning, and actually get them kicked-out of their church in the future....

Are you saying Christian churches don't change their teachings? What about the teaching that women can't be leaders in the church? Does your church teach the exact same things as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century church?


Also, weren't you the one who asked what one would do if after studying the Bible they came to a different understanding of a teaching than the leadership of the church taught that they could either try and change the leaderships teaching or leave the church and go to one that taught the way they now believed? What is the difference there?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Are you saying Christian churches don't change their teachings? What about the teaching that women can't be leaders in the church? Does your church teach the exact same things as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century church?

well lets look at the essential teachings...

salvation by grace though faith?...the creed?....

100 years ago?........the same.


Now, according to Mormonism?.....(have you seen the video I posted on how the Mormons have changed the requirements of exaltation ?)

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well lets look at the essential teachings...

Wait, who said we were talking about essential teachings. You sure didn't say that initially.

Now, according to Mormonism?.....(have you seen the video I posted on how the Mormons have changed the requirements of exaltation ?)

No, because I don't have the time to watch the videos. Sorry. Maybe you could summarize?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Also, weren't you the one who asked what one would do if after studying the Bible they came to a different understanding of a teaching than the leadership of the church taught that they could either try and change the leaderships teaching or leave the church and go to one that taught the way they now believed? What is the difference there?

I think you confuse the "point of view"

If you check with what I wrote, you will note I was speaking from the point of view of the individual ....
What Im saying is that if a person looks to the bible for truth, and then understands that the leadership of his religion are in error, then he should vote with his feet, rise up, turn, and walk out.

I will provide links to what I wrote here in a moment so you can check.

What Im saying here now is connected to what I have wrote before about the "person" being the one responsible for seeking truth and defending truth.

When a Leadership goes off the rails it falls to the "person" to defend truth.

This is why Cults will be so quick to come down hard on their members that try to read and study the bible apart from the Cults guidance. The last thing the Cult wants is some of their members doing a Bible study that is not under the watchful control of the Leadership.

This is how Cults are able to flip-flop their teachings on the requirements for entering the kingdom (or ascending to higher levels in the afterlife etc) and have it simply believed without question by the members....
They don't dare question anything, they don't question it because they are so used to the idea that "truth" can change over night!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Wait, who said we were talking about essential teachings. You sure didn't say that initially.

If you would like me to go back to anything I have written and make it more clear what i was pointing to?...just ask?.....any post, and comment I have made?....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

No, because I don't have the time to watch the videos. Sorry. Maybe you could summarize?

Well,,,when the free time opens up...they will be here.

I will post more this week so that you can find one short enough to your liking...(There are many to pick from and Im sure I can find one within your limited time to watch it within)

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Well,,,when the free time opens up...they will be here.

I will post more this week so that you can find one short enough to your liking...(There are many to pick from and Im sure I can find one within your limited time to watch it within)

Honestly, I have no interest in watching the videos. If you can't present the question/information then I'm really not interested in pursuing further. I do in between phone calls at work and when I'm at home, I'm with my family. Sorry.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If you would like me to go back to anything I have written and make it more clear what i was pointing to?...just ask?.....any post, and comment I have made?....

"The Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the 7th Dayers, and Armstrong-ism all have a "truth" that changes.

This means that the teachings of such religions of 100 years ago would have changed so much by now that if a person from a 100 or so years ago were to show up and try to teach the same as what he knew from his time , they would be kicked out for it.

You cant be a Mormon from the age when Mormonism started and try to fit-in with modern Mormonism...

The founder of the Mormonism or the founder of the JW's etc, would get themselves booted out of their religion if they tried to teach their old teachings in the modern religions that they started.

This is one of the ways the modern Cults keep a firm hold on their members.
The member of a Cult feels the need to stick close to the Cult because of the ability of the teachings held by the Cult to change over night.

From day to day the Cult member is never really sure that what believes as the "Truth" today will still be promoted as the "truth " tomorrow.

This also means that each member of a Cult you talk to, no matter how strongly they protest that "They have the truth" also knows deep down in their hearts that what they tell people is the "Truth" could change without warning, and actually get them kicked-out of their church in the future...."


Where in here are you talking about the essential doctrines? I can't find it. So when I ask you about changes that Christian churches have made over the years you reply with "essential" beliefs. I think you do this because you know that christian churches have changed the "truth" that it teaches over the years and so your argument falls apart and so you have to change the goal posts to be only the "essential" doctrines.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Honestly, I have no interest in watching the videos. .......

Thats ok....others may find the information interesting.

I will try to post a bunch of videos this week to help start new topics about the different subject matter in the videos.

There are some very interesting topics that I have seen on a few of these videos that i never really had known much about before.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"The Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the 7th Dayers, and Armstrong-ism all have a "truth" that changes.

This means that the teachings of such religions of 100 years ago .

The teachings Im pointing to would be the real big teachings...

>the very teachings that got Joe Smith shot...
>the teachings that Pastor Russel taught about the return of christ.
>The teachings of Armstrong about the united States in the bible....
>The teachings of miller on the date for the return of Christ...etc....

These are the things that the different churches sprang forth from,,,the core teachings that gave birth to the whole movements....the totally essential teachings.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Are you saying Christian churches don't change their teachings? What about the teaching that women can't be leaders in the church? Does your church teach the exact same things as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century church?


Also, weren't you the one who asked what one would do if after studying the Bible they came to a different understanding of a teaching than the leadership of the church taught that they could either try and change the leaderships teaching or leave the church and go to one that taught the way they now believed? What is the difference there?

Why do you compare the old abomination christian churches to the everlasting once and for all true church of Joseph Smith jr imaginary mind?
Remember it was ol jo excuse to come up with the LDSinc. because all other churches had changed over the past 1700 years!

[alanmolstad]

so lets look at each of these religions and see what has been going on?

Mormons:....what was the one thing that Smith pushed that was actually the main thing that kick-started his new religion?..."sex"

It was this desire to have sex with younger girls that became the flag pole that gathered many of Smith's early believers to his side.
the desire to have sex with different girls, younger girls, and this to be done openly and with nothing your wife could do against it.

JWs, and Russel.....what was the one thing that kick-started the JWs?.....The date for the return of Christ,
if you check in the history of the JWs what you learn is that Russel got a huge following due to a very successful campaign he had, where he went from town to town preaching about the predicted date for the return of christ and the end of the world.

Armstrong, the thing H Armstrong had going that got so much attention was that he taught that England and America were talked about in the Bible.


Miller is the biggest name in the whole "End Times" movement that was the start of the 7th dayers...
They also had a date set for the return, and even went so far as to put on the right clothes and stand outside for the return to happen on the predicted date.



these guys all had clear teachings that were core to their movements...they were the things that drew in the people under their tent....

all are forgotten teachings now...

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles


When I talk to a member of a Cult, one of the things you notice is that when the other person starts to see something that they did not know before, they race back to their Cult's leadership to find the answer.

They never race to the bible.

They dont trust their own ability to read and understand the Bible, that is because the Cult leadership has taught them that the order of things is - God, to the Cult leaders, to You....

this is why when a member of a Cult starts to see for themselves and starts to see that they cant trust the Cult's leaders, they also start to feel like a boat without an rudder.
They dont know where to turn to for guidance because they have come to always see their leadership as God's only "channel" for truth.

The problem is that the member of the Cult is even more so dependent on the leadership for truth because the so-called 'truth" that the Cult teaches has a nasty tendency to change from time to time.

This ability for the taught truths to change overnight makes the members of the Cult that much more so dependent on the leadership for truth.

They dont dare stop looking to the Cult for truth because they never know when a new truth is about to come out.

And this problem in rational thinking is explained here:

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria

[alanmolstad]

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria


I admit it was a bit of a challenge for me to read and understand as I went along....But in the end I noted how much agreement I had with this work....