When truth changes.

[alanmolstad]

once again, the story is true....

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

once again, the story is true....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Everytime I see that word "Athanasian" I always think of the Stargate.....

You should study the history of Christianity, and St. Athanasius' prominent place in it.

and thinking you are going to be "like god" is more than enough to send a person to hell .

Have you notified St. John that his thinking, as recorded in the Bible, is more than enough to send St. John to hell? And should he believe your condemnation of him, as if you know more about the subject than he did?

See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.…
(http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-2.htm)

A question for you: Did John just "think" that he was going to be like God? Or did he state that he knew it?

I will direct the rest of your accusations directly to John, since he was claiming that "we will be like God" waaaaay before the LDS ever started to:

it clearly means you (St. John) dont have a clue as to who you are, who God is, and the whole of what the christian faith is about....

Do you feel foolish yet?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Funny, but I have had many honest conversations about Mormonism and I have been in the temple. Sex has never come up in conversation and nowhere have I seen it as a tangential part of a conversation, let alone the center of it. I have also never once heard of a Mormon man say he wanted to be able to cheat on his wife.

I'd say the more I read your posts, alan, the more convinced I am you have no idea what you are talking about. I do think that you seem to gravitate to anything salacious and sensational, since every time I see you claim to not know something about Mormonism, then all of a sudden you claim to have found something salacious and now you claim that new thing you found is the basis for the whole religion.

Your observations are beginning to seem valid.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Given all the other stuff you believe is true, I don't doubt you believe it is true.

Here is another "little story." Reportedly, Ed was a guest on a radio talk show in the 1980s, in Utah. He said some untrue things about LDS doctrines on the air. When they were off the air, the host asked Ed why he thought it was okay to tell lies about Mormonism. He answered "When you're fighting the devil's church, anything goes."

So Alan may have been duped by the guy who contributed to the practice of what is called "lying for Jesus." (Google the phrase)

But at some point, Alan will probably incur some personal responsibility for believing that "it is the desire of Mormon men to have many wives" merely because Ed Decker told him so. There probably will be a day of reckoning in the future.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I am surprised to discover that you are unbiased enough to admit that there were good, honest men in the LDS church.

Why would you believe otherwise? I have LDS neighbors. They are wonderful people. Shirt off their back kind of people.. Just because we disagree about our faith doesn't change that.. It's sad that we don't know each other better.. I'll bet we could be friends.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why would you believe otherwise?

Because of what you and your wife have written about the horrible treatment you got from, it seemed, every single LDS person in your former ward.

I have LDS neighbors. They are wonderful people. Shirt off their back kind of people..

That is good to learn--that perhaps you don't take the bad treatment that you feel you got from a few LDS people, and project it onto all LDS people.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Because of what you and your wife have written about the horrible treatment you got from, it seemed, every single LDS person in your former ward.


That is good to learn--that perhaps you don't take the bad treatment that you feel you got from a few LDS people, and project it onto all LDS people.

Not at all.. I just have run up against a lot of hyper-spiritual people at the ward.. Here among my neighbors I have had but a few problems.. Those right after I was exed.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by John T

Ask the wrong question, and you will ALWAYS get the wrong answer.

We both know that nailing you guys on a particular doctrine is like nailing jello to the wall. We also know the reason for that is because like a lime green jello salad, your LDS doctrines shift like the tide. What ewas taught yesterday is not taught now, but will be resurrected in 30 years or so, Therein lies the fallacy of your question.

The PROPER question to ask is "Do the quotes that James provided prove his thesis that thing represent what the LDS leasders taught?" The answer is a resounding "yes".
So stop playing games and deal with the facts because your illogical attempt of a pathetic re****al is now exposed.

It is strange to me that the LDS will scream and cry about not being subject to words coming from their historic leaded. It was their founder that taught that"

History of the Church Vol 1 page 38
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth p*** away, my word shall not p*** away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

If all that the Lord has given to His servants the LDS prophets why wouldn't all that He has revealed through them still in force? The New and everlasting covenant lasted less than 80 years. The united order lasted less than 15 years. The temple ceremony seems to always be in flex.. A temple commanded to be built in far west, and the LDS people commanded to work on it till it be finished was later commanded to be abandon because of the threat from the Missouri State Militia.. Seems all will be fulfilled that is fulfilled and the rest is of what was said to be fulfilled God changes His mind about.. All will not be fulfilled, only what has already happened will be fulfilled.. Does God have many wives, the mormon god does and that is defined by our language as a harem.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Make a false statement, and you will ALWAYS run the risk of being questioned on it.

In this case, Jim said "The LDS have these crazy ideas that will **** them to hell."
Which of us LDS has this "crazy" idea? How many people does he think are currently in danger of being ****ed to hell if they don't abandon this idea before they die?


Ah, so you are joining Jim in falsely stating that it IS a doctrine of the LDS church that God has a harem of many wives.
Tell me where on the church's website, which states its doctrines, you found this doctrine. Because I haven't seen it there. And if it's not there, and can't be "nailed down" as a doctrine of the LDS church, then why should I or anyone else believe your and Jim's claim that it IS a doctrine of the LDS church?

How did YOU manage to nail it down, if it can't be nailed down? You have done what you yourself claim to be impossible?


So you are admitting that it is NOT a doctrine of the LDS church that God has a harem of many wives...but you're prophesying that in the 2044, it will be?

Then you and Jim don't need to be accusing us of having this "crazy" idea until 2044? So if you accuse the LDS church of having this doctrine now, you're bearing false witness?

Deal with those issues.

The crazy idea I was speaking of it that of rejecting the Biblical christian faith. A faith that tells us that there is one God not many.. That by His grace through faith in Jesus we gain the fullness of His salvation. That Jesus is the High priest, and His priesthood endures eternally in Him alone. Yes by all means believe the man Joseph Smith and look to Him and your present prophet. Igore the teachings of the past that PROVE that mormonism has changed evolved to become what it is today.. It was built on lies and retained too many. Even if it were only the belief that God was once a man like us. That he lived a life like the life Jesus lived, they would be teaching a false God.. A god who's nature doesn't reflect the attributes He has true nature as revealed in the Bible..

You have been shown in LDS records where God is said to have more than one wife.. That is polygamy and the wives cons***ute a harem.. You can go back and see the references again.. They are all from LDS sources..I don't believe we have to wait until 2044 to know that God is Spirit, That there is no marriage in heaven. That God created ALL things which includes Hydrogen, Oxygen, and all the rest of the elements on the periodic table.. It is another crazy idea to believe that God is a finite God having not ALWAYS been God but having been a disembodied intelligence, a premortal spirit, a human being and finally an exalted being.. Every single unique LDS doctrine is crazy.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The crazy idea I was speaking of it that of rejecting the Biblical christian faith.

Then why did you insert your comment into the thread where the context of the ***ertion that LDS doctrine is that "God has a harem of many wives" ???

Yes by all means believe the man Joseph Smith and look to Him and your present prophet.

I realize you defected from the church a long time ago, but Thomas S. Monson is our present prophet. Joseph Smith died in 1844.

You have been shown in LDS records where God is said to have more than one wife..

People can say all kinds of things, but that doesn't automatically make them church doctrine.

.I don't believe we have to wait until 2044 to know that God is Spirit, That there is no marriage in heaven. That God created ALL things which includes Hydrogen, Oxygen, and all the rest of the elements on the periodic table..

You don't have to wait to find out the falsity of your false beliefs. You can pray in faith and ask God, in the name of His Son, about those issues, and if it's good that you find out now, God will let you know now.

It is another crazy idea to believe that God is a finite God having not ALWAYS been God but having been a disembodied intelligence, a premortal spirit, a human being and finally an exalted being.. Every single unique LDS doctrine is crazy..

You think it's a unique LDS doctrine that God used to be a disembodied en***y? Isn't that what you currently believe Him to be--a disembodied en***y?

[alanmolstad]

cuz the mormon teaching of becoming a god and having a harem of wives in the afterlife is built around the skirt-chasing that Joe Smith did in front of and behind his wifs back.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

cuz the mormon teaching of becoming a god and having a harem of wives in the afterlife is built around the skirt-chasing that Joe Smith did in front of and behind his wifs back.

Cuz you have no real argument, so the best you can do is make up stuff that sounds witty but is actually quite juvenile.

[alanmolstad]

i do not respond to personal stuff

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Isn't that what you currently believe Him to be--a disembodied en***y?

Im not sure where Jim would get the idea that anyone in the bible is "disembodied "?
I guess it would depend on the context?

When I die, my spirit goes to be with the Lord (as also happened to the thief on the cross) and my body goes into the ground and becomes part of nature and dirt and plants and stuff.

Im not sure i would use the term "disembodied" to describe what happens to all people.....that seems more like a word that describes a horror movie ...or something from ghostbusters?

I would use the term "away from the body but at home with the Lord' and let that be that...

But this is only for a short term as we see in the life/death and resurrection of Christ.
We will rise as He did out of the ground, and be in new a everlasting body of flesh and bone, and as such we will live with the lord forever....

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154489]Then why did you insert your comment into the thread where the context of the ***ertion that LDS doctrine is that "God has a harem of many wives" ???

Look up the meaning of doctrine you will fine that it is a reaching of a religion.. A synonym is a belief.. So a doctrine of mormonism, something that is believed by the religion is that God has more than one wife..

I realize you defected from the church a long time ago, but Thomas S. Monson is our present prophet. Joseph Smith died in 1844.

Of he is no longer your prophet why talk about his and being the "Prophet Joseph Smith". Why hold a praise song in your hymnal directed at him? But thank you for pointing out that you thank God for a man that is here to guide you in these later days.. No need for you to deal with God directly you have a man to do that for you..

People can say all kinds of things, but that doesn't automatically make them church doctrine.

No just anyone can stand at the pulpit in general conference and give an address to the church. The speakers are carefully chosen, they talks checked to make sure that they have only approved content.. Everything spoken of in conference is either the approved doctrine or aligns with approved doctrine.. EVERYTHING..

You don't have to wait to find out the falsity of your false beliefs. You can pray in faith and ask God, in the name of His Son, about those issues, and if it's good that you find out now, God will let you know now.

I love the arrogance of members of the LDS church.. They believe that if people would pray they would all fall into line and believe the lies of mormonism and leave behind God truth found in His word.. You seem to believe that people don't even pray for wisdom. That they don't ask God to open His truth to their minds and hearts. That is one of the sheer lies that I have heard all mormons tell.. I don't need to ask God if Jesus is God. I don't need to ask God about animals of life species ***ociating together. And I don't need to ask Him if His children love being with others of the faith..

I have heard many an LDS tell me that people judge them selves and gravitate to the degree of glory where they feel most comfortable. I know that I am not comfortable being around people of a more affluent social relations any more than richer people feel at home in my shabby middle cl*** home..

You think it's a unique LDS doctrine that God used to be a disembodied en***y? Isn't that what you currently believe Him to be--a disembodied en***y?

And you doubt that.. If you do you aren't deep into understanding the "ONE ETERNAL ROUND" are you?

On page 40 of the Teaching of Joseph Smith. He teaches that "God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret." Did the great prophet Thomas S. Monson correct that teaching? If he never addresses it as being in error does that mean that it is still a belief (Doctrine) of the church.. I would think so..

President Young affirmed that teaching of Joseph Smith saying "God the Father was once a man on another planet who p***ed the ordeals we are now p***ing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality." (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, p29).. I have noticed that Young's teaching on Adam God has been countered by many more resent "prophets" of mormonism. yet the Idea that God has always existed is a common teaching in all of mormonism. They say that and neglect to say that for most of eternity they believe that He wasn't yet God but was an intelligence without even a spirit body, just as they believe they were..

I believe what is said about Him in the Bible.. I believe that He is Spirit. I believe that a spirit has not a body of flesh and bone like we have. I believe that Jesus is the physical image of the invisible God.. I haven't said.."Oh that doesn't seem right, I will make up some other God that I can relate to better. That is what a cultist would do.. Through their mistrust of God, and their doubts that anyone can hold that the Bible still has God's unaltered word contained within it's pages.. Sound like any group you know.. It does to me..

I don't personally know any of the Christian posters here or on any other forum where God, His nature, and ways are discussed that differ with me as to any of those points.. Yes we have differences in baptism, church government, or the timing of the rapture, but on the subject of the nature of God and His salvation we are in complete and total agreement.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Look up the meaning of doctrine you will fine that it is a reaching of a religion.. A synonym is a belief.. So a doctrine of mormonism, something that is believed by the religion is that God has more than one wife..

The huge problem with that kind of bad logic is that it's bearing false witness to claim that the speculation or opinion of a member of a group automatically becomes the belief and doctrine of the group.

That's a bit like saying that if a member of the U.S. Senate, such as Harry Reid, is of the opinion that all children of Republicans should be executed, then it's a belief and doctrine of the USA that all children of Republicans should be executed.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The huge problem with that kind of bad logic is that it's bearing false witness to claim that the speculation or opinion of a member of a group automatically becomes the belief and doctrine of the group.

That's a bit like saying that if a member of the U.S. Senate, such as Harry Reid, is of the opinion that all children of Republicans should be executed, then it's a belief and doctrine of the USA that all children of Republicans should be executed.

Not my opinions but those men that have been closely ***ociated with the presidents of the church.. Execution of our children would be the doctrine of the US Senate if Mr Reid introduced such a bill and through what ever means open to him got it p***ed even if the house later dismissed it.. It is a good thing that Mr Reid isn't that much of a hater to even conceive such a terrible "What if".. No man in the senate would have such power. neither Harry Reid nor President Obama has the force of will over the hearts of men as does the strong central leadership of a cult leader.. So the president of the LDS church does have the power to twist the nature of God.. It has been done before. IHS jim