Can you stomach the blasphemy?

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154332]Let's ***ume for a moment that this social norm applies to God, and that Joseph and Jesus are mingling because they are peers. If Joseph was exalted above Jesus, they would not be peers, and they would have no business mingling. Your own reasoning proves the OP wrong.

Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus. I do them say that Smith, and by extension all the other dispensational ushers are peers with Jesus.. It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge.. Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..

I agree that Smith is NOT a peer of God. Therefore Smith will never make plans for God's children, he will NOT even mingle with God. I know that this hymn is extracted from common LDS beliefs. What I am saying is those beliefs are in serious biblical error.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus.

Of course not, because we don't. But the OP claims that we do. That's the problem here.

It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge..

Actually, the Bible teaches that the apostles will judge the tribes of Israel, and the saints will judge the world and angels. Are they peers of God?

Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..

False. (aka worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric)

I agree that Smith is NOT a peer of God. Therefore Smith will never make plans for God's children, he will NOT even mingle with God.

Non sequitur. But this does raise an interesting question: What's the point of being with God in heaven if you aren't allowed to ***ociate with Him?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus. I do them say that Smith, and by extension all the other dispensational ushers are peers with Jesus.. It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge.. Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..

What about Matthew 19:28?

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What about Matthew 19:28?

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Does the p***age say that they sit in the throne of Jesus with Him or are they given their own? Does the p***age say that they determine who enters the Kingdom and who does not? There is more than one judgment.. One of the dead, one for reward. Could there be others, sure, but those two are Biblical.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

False. My opinion is based on 1) the definition of the word "blasphemy", and 2) the lyrics you posted.

Yes they do, but what they say is not blasphemy.

I'm sorry you feel the need to lash out at me when you are unable to back up your claim.

According to the Dictionary blasphemy is:

Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. (Dictionary.com)

To teach that Smith was mingling with God planning for his church, the LDS church is usurping the power of God and ***igning it to Smith.. That is BLASPHEMY.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Does the p***age say that they sit in the throne of Jesus with Him or are they given their own? Does the p***age say that they determine who enters the Kingdom and who does not? There is more than one judgment.. One of the dead, one for reward. Could there be others, sure, but those two are Biblical.. IHS jim

You tell me. The Bible clearly teaches that they will have some kind of judging duties. You said that was reserved for God. You didn't leave any room for some other judges.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154334]You're being far too generous with your praise.

You deserve it

Duh, but the issue here is whether Joseph is exalted above Jesus. The answer is clearly no.

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him.. That makes Smith a God himself that is blasphemy. Does that show that mormonism rates Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, YES..

False. No LDS would agree with that.

Doesn't matter if they agree with the teachings that the church holds/held that is what the lyrics teach.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him..

No it doesn't. How do you reach that conclusion? When Jesus mingled with sinners did that make Him a sinner or the sinners equal to God?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Let's bring this down to earth and frame it this way. Let's say I'm a manager over an individual. This individual has worked on a special project with the
Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

Suppose I praise him for the work he did on this project. Am I exalting him over the President? No. I'm giving credit where credit is due but I realize that the company is still run by the CEO. I'm not placing the work this person does above the work that the President or CEO do.

Is that man a human being that has the same value as the President of the company? Yes? To praise him them makes him equal in his value to the President of the company.

While working with the CEO what he said had just as much value as what the CEO said.. Yes while they were working together they were completely equal. If the worker were to stay in that position permanently he would remain equal with the CEO on that project.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You tell me. The Bible clearly teaches that they will have some kind of judging duties. You said that was reserved for God. You didn't leave any room for some other judges.

As long as such judgment isn't the judgment of who and who does not enter the highest heaven.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Is that man a human being that has the same value as the President of the company? Yes? To praise him them makes him equal in his value to the President of the company.

While working with the CEO what he said had just as much value as what the CEO said.. Yes while they were working together they were completely equal. If the worker were to stay in that position permanently he would remain equal with the CEO on that project.. IHS jim

Wow, that really clears things up. Have you ever worked in large companies? I've worked for a few and your view is not what is understood in today's marketplace. The individual can have input but will never have decision making authority to the same level as the President.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

To teach that Smith was mingling with God planning for his church, the LDS church is usurping the power of God and ***igning it to Smith.. That is BLASPHEMY..

No it isn't. Mingling does not mean usurping.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

As long as such judgment isn't the judgment of who and who does not enter the highest heaven.. IHS jim

How do you know it doesn't? The Bible doesn't say explicitly but it sure sounds like they will be judging similar to what Christ will be doing.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You deserve it

No, I don't deserve to be exalted above Jesus, and I wish you would stop doing it.

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him..

No it doesn't, but even if it did, that would disprove the OP's claim that Joseph is exalted above Jesus.

Does that show that mormonism rates Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus

No, it shows that YOU rate Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, since you are the only one who thinks you can't mingle with someone unless you are their peer.

Doesn't matter if they agree with the teachings that the church holds/held that is what the lyrics teach..

There you have it. James says LDS believe something, and if every LDS on the planet denies it, it doesn't matter. Truth and reality don't matter to anti-Mormons.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

No it isn't. Mingling does not mean usurping.

Do you believe that no one of this dispensation will enter the Kingdom of God without a certificate from Joseph Smith or not? To make the judgment on who enters the Kingdom and who does not is usurping the power and authority of God.. That is a judgment reserved only to the Lord made on His terms and not on the reasoning of any man.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Wow, that really clears things up. Have you ever worked in large companies? I've worked for a few and your view is not what is understood in today's marketplace. The individual can have input but will never have decision making authority to the same level as the President.

Then this example is not the same as what is explained about the power and authority that the LDS give to Joseph Smith.. His decision is final for everyone that lived in this the last dispensation. If that wasn't so then the teaching that what the Lord's apostles bound of earth would be bound in heaven would have no merit.. What they said would have no more authority than a suggestion to the CEO you tried and failed to use in your example.. They are far from being the same thing.. Now if the CEO could indwell the employee as to direct His decision in the way the CEO would direct and then respect his decisions 100% then you would have something.. But to them that except the praise for the work that the CEO (God) did in the hearts and minds of men to bring them to Jesus to confess their sin and be given His salvation, or even say they had the ability to hold the Church together, that is blasphemy.. Smith and those that support him in the doctrines taught in that horrible song ascribing to him the right to make plans for the Church are just as guilty as Smith was in this matter.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

No it doesn't. How do you reach that conclusion? When Jesus mingled with sinners did that make Him a sinner or the sinners equal to God?

Doesn't the Bible tech us that He who know no sin became sin that we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. Sounds like that verse answers you better than I could.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154350]No, I don't deserve to be exalted above Jesus, and I wish you would stop doing it.

That isn't what I said you deserved.. You said "There's more stupidity there than I could ever hope to achieve." I then praised you saying that "I don't think you should sell yourself short.. You are keeping up with any statement I have ever seen here.." I can't help it that you believed you were really being praised for doing anything but breaking the rules of the forum..

No it doesn't, but even if it did, that would disprove the OP's claim that Joseph is exalted above Jesus.

To agree with your line of discussion on this point I will say YES, IT DOES.. then say that unless you can show where the OP says that Smith was exalted above Jesus you are wrong twice..

No, it shows that YOU rate Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, since you are the only one who thinks you can't mingle with someone unless you are their peer.

It is your ***ertion that different cl***es mingle together so show me where that is done and I will concede the point.. I don't see too many skid row bums attending the Opera do you?

There you have it. James says LDS believe something, and if every LDS on the planet denies it, it doesn't matter. Truth and reality don't matter to anti-Mormons.

Dang, read it again!.. I said it doesn't matter what men believe the truth of God is, it is still the truth of God.. If He gave that truth once through one of your prophets that truth would continue to be truth because that Lord God doesn't change (Mal 3:6).. But in mormonism that attribute of God has probably changed too.. Look at your temple ceremony to see the changes made there.. There is no penalty, there in no preacher. And this in an unchangeable ordinance.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

To make the judgment on who enters the Kingdom and who does not is usurping the power and authority of God.. That is a judgment reserved only to the Lord made on His terms and not on the reasoning of any man..

The Bible disagrees with you, as has been pointed out.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154337]Of course not, because we don't. But the OP claims that we do. That's the problem here.

That should be easy to prove just quote the section of the OP that says that..

Actually, the Bible teaches that the apostles will judge the tribes of Israel, and the saints will judge the world and angels. Are they peers of God?

That p***age never says they they are p***ing judgment on Israel for salvation now does it.. isn't that done at the Great White throne where Jesus sit in the judgement of the dead? Those whose names are not recorded in the Lamb's book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire.. Only God sits on that judgment seat.. Entry into the Kingdom is a judgment for salvation or ****ation. Smith usurps God place in doing that. The Apostles nor the Saints are given such a judgment..

False. (aka worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric)

True to say it is false is worthless anti-Christian rhetoric.. Oh these "is so, is not" arguments are so authoritative..

Non sequitur. But this does raise an interesting question: What's the point of being with God in heaven if you aren't allowed to ***ociate with Him?

The Scripture says that those that believe that He is God will be protected under His wings.. That He will wipe away all their tears, and that He will except their worship.. It doesn't matter what you think you can do or gain from Him through obedience, God will do what he has promised in accordance with both His nature and His will.. His nature is that He alone in God and He is one Lord.. His promise is that whosoever believes it Him will not perish but have everlasting life.. If you deny His nature and worship beings that are plural then you can't gain a place before Him faith in a false God guarantees nothing.. Believing in the God of the Bible is required, believing in the God of Joseph Smith and DOING all the good works such a God demands excludes a person from God's salvation, until there is recognition of the true and living God and repentance for all sin including holding a false God before Him.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

How do you know it doesn't? The Bible doesn't say explicitly but it sure sounds like they will be judging similar to what Christ will be doing.

Does it? And you can know for sure that they can judge for salvation because of what, your feelings? You better wait and see what their judgment is all about.. It isn't I that am guessing.. You are doing that. You are adding your own feelings to what God has given us in His word.. Unless you know for sure by the scriptures that what you are saying is the truth you shouldn't use it to make a point.. I say WITH AUTHORITY that whosoever believes in Jesus (the real Jesus) will not die but have everlasting life.. That disagrees with mormonism and with 99% of the world that wants to measure good works against bad works.. So how can anyone trust your perception of what the Apostles will judge Israel for? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

The Bible disagrees with you, as has been pointed out.

It has? I have agreed that many if not all people make judgments.. But NO ONE JUDGES for salvation that is God's duty and not man's and you haven't shown from the Bible that it isn't.. The Bible teaches that God judges the heart.. No where does it say that the Apostle, Prophets or the Saints have that authority.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Does it? And you can know for sure that they can judge for salvation because of what, your feelings? You better wait and see what their judgment is all about.. It isn't I that am guessing.. You are doing that. You are adding your own feelings to what God has given us in His word.. Unless you know for sure by the scriptures that what you are saying is the truth you shouldn't use it to make a point

I'm not reading anything into it. It is you that is picking and choosing parts of the Bible that you'll believe. It is pretty clear "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

To agree with your line of discussion on this point I will say YES, IT DOES.. then say that unless you can show where the OP says that Smith was exalted above Jesus you are wrong twice..

"What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ."
"So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"

It is your ***ertion that different cl***es mingle together so show me where that is done and I will concede the point..

This happens in the Church of Jesus Christ.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

"What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ."
"So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"


This happens in the Church of Jesus Christ.

Maybe your problem is that you don't understand big words like "supplant".. It doesn't mean to move beyond another, it means to take the place of another by force or scheming. Isn't that what this hymn says of Smith? Instead of God (Jesus) planning for His church, Smith is placed in that roll? That is to supplant God (Jesus) with the man Joseph Smith.. That hymn exalts Smith to the level of God (Jesus)..

The cl***es DO NOT mingle in the LDS church. The poor are isolated socially by those who have been called to positions in the Ward/Branch. I know that first hand, I lived it.. As a young Airman in the branch in North Dakota I was seldom spoken too unless it was an insult coming from one of the children.. That always made me wonder where such thoughts came from originally.. This was a large branch with over 300 members and yet weeks would go by with not a word said to me.. I can count on one hand the members that gave me or my family any kind words.. You could say this was ins***utionalized by the Air Force in frowning on fraternization between officers and enlisted men, but many of the members there were locals and not ***ociated with the military. I am sorry but the built in pride of the wealthier LDS creates division.. IHS jim