Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 66 of 66

Thread: Religiondumb

  1. #51
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?

  2. #52
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?
    Hello Saxon,
    Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?

  3. #53
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Hello Saxon,
    Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?
    OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

    I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

    Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

  4. #54
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

    I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

    Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?

  5. #55
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?
    I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

    The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.

  6. #56
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    why does no one post on weekends.....and then posts during the work week when i have no time to respond?

  7. #57
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

    The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.
    Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?
    Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.

  8. #58
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?
    Believing that you have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. I also believe that I have a secure position in eternal life that is in Christ Jesus. I also am not contradicting 1 John 5:13 when it states that you may know that you have eternal life. The contradiction is when you believe in OSAS and you turn back and OSAS believers say that the person was never saved even though the one that turned back knew that they were saved. This is 99% of the verdicts that I hear from OSAS people. OSAS in its logical conclusion does not allow 1 John 5:13 to be true.

    Believing in eternal security in the way that you seem to is going against the scripture. There are a mul***ude of p***ages that are in direct opposition to OSAS and scripture does not contradict itself. Ezekiel 18:26, Romans 1:21, Romans 11:20 and 21 and Hebrews 3:12 are all making OSAS an impossible Bible doctrine.

    There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death.

    About the “Hollywood” people, how do you know that they were never saved? They could have been saved for a time. But you do not believe that is possible. Luke 8:13 does not agree with you.

    I agree with you when you say, “Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back”. The problem is never ever God taking salvation back but the problem is us leaving it behind us and wandering off. (See Hebrews 3:12)

    Paul did have a problem with his desires and was man enough to admit it. We all are in the same boat as Paul. Go over Paul’s teaching on prayer and repentance. This is how he combats this problem that could have dragged him to hell.


    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

    Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


    Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.
    1 John was written to Christians along with the entire Bible. John said If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If the wages of sin is death, what happens if we ignore 1 John 1:9? Why did Paul feel secure in Jesus Christ?

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

  9. #59
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Hello Saxon,
    You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."
    Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship. Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it? Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?

  10. #60
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Hello Saxon,
    You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."

    Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship.
    Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

    At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

    I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



    Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it?
    The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God



    Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?
    You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.

  11. #61
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

    At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

    I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.





    The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God





    You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.
    Hi Saxon,
    I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.

  12. #62
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Saxon,
    I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.
    I do not feel that you are against me at all. We are in a disagreement. The only “winners” are those that are in Christ Jesus. I want to discuss what we are engaged in but I am finding it to be one-sided. I believe that I am explaining to you what it is that I believe but you do not seem to want to explain why you do not agree with what I am posting in the form of Bible quotes and questions.

    I too believe that I can still learn as I know for sure that I am not a know it all. I have posted why I reject OSAS from scripture, but you do not attempt to explain why I am in error about OSAS. The scripture that I have posted is just a small amount that I believe contradicts OSAS and I get no direct response to my objections. Can you help me see what is supposed to be wrong with what I am saying?

  13. #63
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    why does no one post on weekends around here?....during the work week Im mostly onthe road and its hard to post on a phone....

  14. #64
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    I will be available this weekend starting at 0000 hrs to 1000 hrs Sa****ay then 2200 hrs Sa****ay to 1000 hrs Sunday and 2200 hrs Sunday to 0800 Monday. All times are Atlantic standard. If you can keep up the pace at any of those times I will be there.

  15. #65
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    I gave you the times, but you didn't show.

  16. #66
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    Ok, Friday evening 1600 to 2400 Sa****ay 1000 to 2200 Sunday 1000 to 2200. All times Atlantic Standard Time. I will be waiting.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •