Religiondumb

[Saxon]

I would like to add this to what you said. Of course we never have to work for salvation but Christians should be distinct and different from the world. And we told in the scriptures that if you are not living that way, if your life is not distinctly different from the world, there is a real possibility that you are not a Christian at all no matter what you claim, no matter what you imagine, no matter how religious you are. Unless there is a distinction in your living, there is a good possibility that there is no distinction in your nature either.
So if you're not living a different life there's a real possibility you're not a different person. New creatures act like new creatures.
You will have the knowledge of your salvation, the ***urance of your salvation, not by remembering a past event but by seeing a present virtue and growth.

I can agree with you as to what you are adding. Does the adding indicate that you are in agreement with what I have posted? Would you be willing to answer the question from my post that you responded to and comment on the statement that follows keeping in mind the content of John 15:1 to 10? I have reposted it below.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I can agree with you as to what you are adding. Does the adding indicate that you are in agreement with what I have posted? Would you be willing to answer the question from my post that you responded to and comment on the statement that follows keeping in mind the content of John 15:1 to 10? I have reposted it below.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Hello Saxon,

I must first say that I believe that when a person is truly born again it is eternal, no losing your salvation. What happens if a Christian stops doing what God expects him to do? It's a hard question to answer, if you are ***uming disobedience then fellowship with God is affected and perhaps we have a situation similar to the prodigal son, still a son but no longer receiving the benefits normally given to one in the family.

[alanmolstad]

While the Lord may strike with the rod his children.....There are no abortions in the kingdom.

[Saxon]

Abortion is not the prpblem.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Abortion is not the prpblem.

amen!

There are no abortions and lost sheep in the Kingdom.

For when the son brings in the father's sheep not one will be lost!

The Good shepherd does not allow any sheep that have turned up missing to be lost.
For the Son will bring them ALL in....None will be lost.
No sheep will be allowed to jump the fence and stay lost....for when the Son seeks the lost sheep he ALWAYS finds that sheep, and when the Son finds that lost sheep he does not require that sheep to walk back on their own....

NO!....

For when the Son brings home that sheep that sheep will be carried by the Son...
This is the love the Son has for all of the father's sheep, that when the Son returns all the sheep to the father, some will not even be allowed to walk but will be carried to make 100% sure that ALL the Sheep of the father will be safe!

[Saxon]

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[alanmolstad]

sending people to warn others is one of the ways the son makes 100% sure none of the sheep are lost!


none will be lost...none will turn up missing....all the sheep will be brought in safe...

[alanmolstad]

does the lost sheep save himself? no!

[Saxon]

If he is found again the Lord is more than willing to save.

[Saxon]

You are writting of a whole pile of sheep that still wander off. Remember that a lost sheep is LOST.

If you ignore scripture warnings, will you be inclined to listen to a person warning you?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are writting of a whole pile of sheep that still wander off. Remember that a lost sheep is LOST.

If you ignore scripture warnings, will you be inclined to listen to a person warning you?

The Good shepherd searches for the lost sheep of the father until when?........

Until he gets tired of looking?

Until it gets late in the day?

Until it becomes clear that the sheep does not want to come back?

Until the Son starts to worry that he might get lost too?


or....

Until he finds the lost sheep, picks it up and carries it home on his own shoulders?

[alanmolstad]

I was saved by Grace....not via my own works.

Im kept saved by Grace, not via my own works...


The lost sheep never return home willingly.
If they did then there would be no need for the son to go search for them.
If its up to the sheep to return then the Son would just stand by the gate and open it when the sheep comes back on it's own.

But the lost sheep never return on their own.
That is why the good shepherd has to drop everything and go search for them...



Thus, if it were possible for Christians to lose their salvation, all would.

If a Christian were responsible for doing things so as to maintain their salvation, none would be saved.







Do you know why the Good Shepherd drops everything and goes after the lost sheep?
The reason is that the Shepherd knows that "Unless I go get him, he will never return on his own"

[Saxon]

Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hello Saxon
I understand the point you are making and I agree that if we are new creatures in Christ we should act like new creatures, but this does not all happen at once.
1 Peter 1:5-8 says this,"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." Many times the New Testament writers make a point of saying "We do not want you to be deceived brethren", and this is because obviously Christians can be deceived. Many are lulled into thinking inaction and complacency is fine, that is why we must study and encourage one another without becoming legalistic. One truck driver works 6 days a week, the other figures driving twice a month is enough. He is still a truck driver though perhaps lazy or misled. Lazy, misled or deceived Christians have not lost their salvation otherwise it was conditional based on performance. Laziness and apathy cannot chase out the Holy Spirit which dwells in each Christian but should bring about conviction and even chastisement. But sometimes professors are not possessors, who knows the heart but God. Remember John said in his epistle,"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon
I understand the point you are making and I agree that if we are new creatures in Christ we should act like new creatures, but this does not all happen at once.
1 Peter 1:5-8 says this,"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I would like to suggest that at the point of salvation we all become ALL the Christian that we ever will become. A person is either a Christian or a sinner, there is no in-between. What the writer of Hebrews said was that we (Christians) should go on to perfection, or maturity as stated in numerous versions. (See Hebrews 6:1) In the transition to perfection we all learn and stumble and get picked up and carry on. This is normal and expected. This happens as we follow the Lord.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Many times the New Testament writers make a point of saying "We do not want you to be deceived brethren", and this is because obviously Christians can be deceived. Many are lulled into thinking inaction and complacency is fine, that is why we must study and encourage one another without becoming legalistic. One truck driver works 6 days a week, the other figures driving twice a month is enough. He is still a truck driver though perhaps lazy or misled. Lazy, misled or deceived Christians have not lost their salvation otherwise it was conditional based on performance. Laziness and apathy cannot chase out the Holy Spirit which dwells in each Christian but should bring about conviction and even chastisement. But sometimes professors are not possessors, who knows the heart but God. Remember John said in his epistle,"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.

Are you suggesting that it is legalistic to disagree with the thought of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)?

What does deception mean to you? You have stated that Christians can be deceived so I will ***ume that you believe that we, as Christians are open to the full onslaught of deception.

In the following definition items 1, 3 and 4 seem to fit the idea in the Christian realm. What is the point of being deceived? If we cannot fall from grace (See Galatians 5:4) why would Satan waste time deceiving Christians? It is possible to fall from grace. (See Galatians 5:4)

Deceived: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deceived
transitive verb
1 archaic: ensnare
2a obsolete: to be false to
b archaic : to fail to fulfill
3 obsolete: cheat
4: to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
5 archaic : to while away
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive>

You have fallen short on the truck driver. Even the one that drives twice a month is still driving the truck. I am referring to the one that stops driving the truck.

As I pointed out in Ephesians 2:10 it is conditional and performance. Getting salvation from God is a gift, but being a Christian is work. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works and God has ordained that we should walk in them. That is a condition of being a Christian, do the works God ordained for Christians to do.

1 John 2:19 is not workable to the OSAS discussion as there is no possible way to determine if the ones that walked away were or were not saved at one point in time. All it shows is that they were with them and left them. All we can do is pick an opinion that seems correct. The fact that they were with them is compelling me to think that they were saved but walked away. You are of the opinion that they were with them just checking things out and decided not to believe. All we have is opinion and opinion proves nothing.

“Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.” All this does for me is ask the question, who can know if they are saved or not? OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[alanmolstad]

Once you are saved you don't have to get saved again over and over...
Once saved is enough .
You never fall....you can't lose your salvation.

For more supporting information check youtube and search for "WALTER MARTIN CAN A CHRISTIAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION?"

[Saxon]

Once you are saved you don't have to get saved again over and over...
Once saved is enough .
You never fall....you can't lose your salvation.

For more supporting information check youtube and search for "WALTER MARTIN CAN A CHRISTIAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION?"

Yes once saved is enough; unless you turn away from righteousness, commit iniquity or stop believing.

Show the scripture that states that you can’t lose salvation.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[alanmolstad]

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video...
But I think that Walter Martin has some very wise things to say on this topic that we can watch on youtube.

If someone were thinking that they would get some value from it I would suggest that they go listen to Walter Martin teach on this topic before they form too firm of an opinion against eternal security.

[Saxon]

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video...
But I think that Walter Martin has some very wise things to say on this topic that we can watch on youtube.

If someone were thinking that they would get some value from it I would suggest that they go listen to Walter Martin teach on this topic before they form too firm of an opinion against eternal security.

I have been listening to Walter Martin from the mid 1970’s. I found him to be an excellent teacher and I found that I agreed with him on most of what he taught. I disagree with him on the subject of eternal security or OSAS.

I have found nothing in the scriptures that indicate OSAS let alone state anything clearly about OSAS. OSAS is not there.

[alanmolstad]

There are also some recorded debates Walter had with people that believed we need to do works to keep ourselves saved that might help a person see Walter's point.

[alanmolstad]

One of the main ways the Cults draw new members is to teach the idea that you can never know for sure you are 100% saved forever.
When you have a doubt it opens the door and allows the Cults to put the idea into your head that you need to go to them and work to maintain your salvation.

The Cult's type of salvation is an earned one...
It's wadges....it's the payoff for working to support the Cult....

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>



I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[Saxon]

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>

Are you saying that if you do not believe OSAS it is a works salvation and therefore no one that believes OSAS is saved??? OSAS does not allow the believer in OSAS to know if they are saved. How many do you know that went back and were declared to have never been saved? They all thought that they were saved. YOU as a believer in OSAS do not and cannot know if you are saved. Are you in a cult??? See your last statement on the quote directly above.

Getting saved is a gift of God and no works are required. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) After you are saved it is a different story, works are required because we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[alanmolstad]

Totally wrong....

Once you are one of the Lord's sheep you are never anothers......never ever.....