My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think many Calvinists think they are being "misrepresented" when they hear how their doctrine sounds in plain words, without all of the juggling and "spin" they use to describe it and try and justify it, themselves.

But aren't you misrepresenting the doctrine Libby? Let's see if you are.

I asked you two questions in a prior post which are posted again below.


1. Does man make a choice to either accept or reject Christ?

The invitation to accept Christ is offered to all mankind and ANY person who accepts the true Christ will be saved.


2. Is man responsible for the choices that he makes?

Man is responsible for his choices and that includes rejecting Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus cried over the fact that people "would not" come to him

Jesus did not say the people "could not"


This means that the choice given man is real...as real as Gods tears.
And this means that man has free will......

free will is the reason for the tears...
and so Calvinism is wrong

[alanmolstad]

This also means that all men receive the call to come to The Lord.

And that means that men don't go to hell because they were not called....for if that were true men would be off the hook and could not be condemned for failing to listen to a call by god that was actually never made to them,,,,,LOL

[alanmolstad]

But the bible is clear.....men end in hell only because they have rejected the calling by god...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But aren't you misrepresenting the doctrine Libby? Let's see if you are.

No, I am not, but you certainly are...by omission. You leave things out, that you don't really want people to focus on.

Tell me exactly why (you believe) some people "reject Christ"...hmmm?

And, if you can't do that, honestly, I will help you. I have plenty of Calvinist material, plus I have studied Calvinism for years, so don't think you can get away with being dishonest, Billy.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Calvinist is also good at misunderstanding their own questions.

They ask me "does man chose God?"
And my answer is "YES!"

But then they turn around and ask "but I thought you said you believed God predestined us?"

They simply are mixed up

They don't understand that if you are asking a question about mankind, then your POV is strictly dealing with the human side of the issue.

In the same way if you ask "do you believe we were predestined by God?"
And I answer "YES!"
They can't then come back with a POV of a human, as in " But I thought you said you believe men choose to believe?"

As I said before, they believe that man is too depraved to even have the desire to choose God. It's not so much the "ability" (they will tell you they are "able")...it's just that they believe the nature is so wicked that they will NOT EVER choose God, of their own free will. Not unless God first chooses them, and changes their nature.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Tell me exactly why (you believe) some people "reject Christ"...hmmm?

Sure I would be happy to tell you what I believe--like I have many times before but you must have forgotten so I will tell you again. Because of their sin nature they don't want anything to do with Christ and they choose to reject Him. Nobody is forcing them to reject Him and if they did accept Christ they would be saved. They have a choice and they choose what they want which is to reject Christ. Yet you have said that these people don't choose to reject Christ which is false AND they would not be responsible for their choice because it was not really a choice--again this is not what Calvinism teaches--yet you state that you know all about the Reformed position. If you know all about it why don't you me and everyone else a favor and at least present it in an honest way. Fair enough. BTW the Reformed position IS taught in the Bible and we can look at verse after verse to support it--in fact why don't we start with the verses in John 6--the ones that you thus far have refused to discuss.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Let's start with verse 37--who are those that the Father gives to the Son?

[Libby]

They have a choice and they choose what they want which is to reject Christ.

You say they have a choice, but what you haven't said, that is also a part of the belief system, is what I said above.

Calvinists believe that man is much too depraved and absolutely corrupted, to choose God. It would not be in their nature to choose Him (or anything good, for that matter). They are self-centered, sinning machines, who could no more choose God than an ant. According to this belief system, they simply do not have the desire.

I have had Calvinists explain and compare our condition/our nature to other animals, on the planet, in that all animals have a particular nature, and even though they may have the ability to do things outside of their nature, there is a hundred percent chance that they will not.. (like a Lion becoming a vegetarian....he has the "ability", but his nature would prevent him from ever even considering such a thing). That is the condition to which Calvinists believe man has become. So, they, can innocently say, "why yes, we believe that man has the free will to choose"....but, what Billy is not saying, is what I reiterated above (twice, now).

Does a man whose nature doesn't allow him to choose God, really have free will?

Of course not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We are responsible, yes, including the decision to accept or reject God's "drawing".

From your perspective can anyone come to Christ on their own OR do they need to be drawn by the Father first?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

From your perspective can anyone come to Christ on their own OR do they need to be drawn by the Father first?

Drawn by the Father....I already answered this, in one of my above posts. The Father is drawing all of us, all the time.

[Libby]

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You say they have a choice. . .

That is exactly what I said. But why did you say that those who rejected Christ did not choose to do so?

Originally Posted by Libby

Calvinists believe that man is much too depraved and absolutely corrupted, to choose God.

Because of their sin nature they CHOOSE to reject Christ. Again you say that they do not choose to reject Christ and they are not responsible for rejecting Him--but this is not what Calvinism teaches. Those who reject Christ do choose to do so--that is their desire and they are are responsible for this choice. If they did place their faith in Christ they would be saved--but they don't choose to do so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Absolutely God would like to see everyone saved. So in what way do you feel this verse helps your position. Could you explain that one for me?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus cried over the fact that people "would not" come to him
Jesus did not say the people "could not"
This means that the choice given man is real...as real as Gods tears.
And this means that man has free will......
free will is the reason for the tears...
and so Calvinism is wrong

IMO, you made some valid points.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely God would like to see everyone saved. So in what way do you feel this verse helps your position. Could you explain that one for me?

I think maybe I can help you understand how that undermines Calvinism.

Since Calvinism contains the idea that God is absolutely sovereign, doesn't that mean that God always gets what He desires? After all, if someone could sometimes prevent God from getting what He wants, then it means that God is giving some of His sovereignty to someone--God is letting someone get what THEY want.

So if it's true that God wants to see everyone saved, but He's not going to get what He wants, then it logically follows that God isn't absolutely sovereign.

So the terms "God is absolutely sovereign," "God wants to see everyone saved" and the term "Humans have free will" cannot all be true. If the first term is true, then either the second or the third one would be false.

Which means that Calvinism has a fatal flaw.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I think maybe I can help you understand how that undermines Calvinism.

Since Calvinism contains the idea that God is absolutely sovereign, doesn't that mean that God always gets what He desires? After all, if someone could sometimes prevent God from getting what He wants, then it means that God is giving some of His sovereignty to someone--God is letting someone get what THEY want.

So if it's true that God wants to see everyone saved, but He's not going to get what He wants, then it logically follows that God isn't absolutely sovereign.

So the terms "God is absolutely sovereign," "God wants to see everyone saved" and the term "Humans have free will" cannot all be true. If the first term is true, then either the second or the third one would be false.

Which means that Calvinism has a fatal flaw.

If your mormon god doesn't have absolute sovereignty over all things could it possibly mean there is another god out there that has more or less control over his domain?

[Libby]

Phoenix, that is, basically, my thinking. I would only amend that I do believe God is absolutely sovereign, but he does not, generally, exercise his sovereignty over man, especially, in regards to salvation. He desires that we all come to him and, I believe, he does draw us all...all the time...but, not all are receptive, and even though he is sovereign, he does allow individual agency.

He will not "force" us to come to him, but he will "aid" us, in coming to him, if we ask and desire it.

Calvinists believe that God's people have been chosen (by God) before the foundation of the earth and they had no say in it, whatsoever. It was totally God's doing. Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Phoenix, that is, basically, my thinking. I would only amend that I do believe God is absolutely sovereign, but he does not, generally, exercise his sovereignty over man, especially, in regards to salvation. He desires that we all come to him and, I believe, he does draw us all...all the time...but, not all are receptive, and even though he is sovereign, he does allow individual agency.

He will not "force" us to come to him, but he will "aid" us, in coming to him, if we ask and desire it.

Calvinists believe that God's people have been chosen (by God) before the foundation of the earth and they had no say in it, whatsoever. It was totally God's doing. Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.

Again I see you limiting the knowledge of God.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Again I see you limiting the knowledge of God.. IHS jim

She isn't limiting God's KNOWLEDGE. She is recognizing that God limits His own CHOICES. He knows HOW to boss everyone around so they would always do what He would LIKE them to do, but He doesn't do that because He knows it would go against His plan. So it's not a matter of limited knowledge.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

t was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.

the Calvinist teaching that god predestined some to Hell is a corner that Calvin painted himself into that Walter Martin attacked for being the wrong idea it is.

The calvinist believes in this idea strongly...yet they struggle to base this idea on the Bible.
It turns out that the bible does not teach their view of predestination.

This is why you can challenge a Calvinist on this teaching.

The Calvinist also has another idea they like to push that has no support in the bible.....its their " no free will" teaching.

Calvinists love/need people to not have Free Will because their whole theology falls down like a house of cards if man has a free will.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Calvinist teaching that god predestined some to Hell is a corner that Calvin painted himself into that Walter Martin attacked for being the wrong idea it is.

The calvinist believes in this idea strongly...yet they struggle to base this idea on the Bible.
It turns out that the bible does not teach their view of predestination.

This is why you can challenge a Calvinist on this teaching.

The Calvinist also has another idea they like to push that has no support in the bible.....its their " no free will" teaching.

Calvinists love/need people to not have Free Will because their whole theology falls down like a house of cards if man has a free will.

I find the term "predestined" in only two places, Romans chapter 8 and Ephesians chapter 1 and both references are concerning believers, it is never used in reference to unbelievers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

I find the term "predestined" in only two places, Romans chapter 8 and Ephesians chapter 1 and both references are concerning believers, it is never used in reference to unbelievers.

i have a feeling a lot of Calvinists watching this conversion are also finding out this little fact of the bible now too!

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

i have a feeling a lot of Calvinists watching this conversion are also finding out this little fact of the bible now too!

Two of the most important things I have learned is first that God is sovereign and second I will not understand all His ways. He is trustworthy and Holy and does not have to give me a satisfactory explanation for everything in the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Two of the most important things I have learned is first that God is sovereign and second I will not understand all His ways. He is trustworthy and Holy and does not have to give me a satisfactory explanation for everything in the Bible.

in the recording of Walter Martin teaching on this topic he says that people are always stumped on how mans free will works so easy within gods sovereignty?

the answer Walter Martin said to this question is..."No one knows how but it just does"




the bible teaches that man has free will....that we must make a decision to believe...
the bible tells us that there is nothing stopping us except for our own free will decision to not believe.

the bible also informs us that we cant come to christ except god fist draw us...and that god draws all men.
so this means god does not predestine anyone to Hell...nor does god send anyone to Hell.....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by disciple

Two of the most important things I have learned is first that God is sovereign and second I will not understand all His ways. He is trustworthy and Holy and does not have to give me a satisfactory explanation for everything in the Bible.

The key word here is (satisfactory). Jesus said to search the Scriptures.
I believe in them is the answers we all seek answers, however our on biases and background somethings conflict with God's Truth, and that can be a problem.