My daughter came into town yesterday.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The key word here is (satisfactory). Jesus said to search the Scriptures.
I believe in them is the answers we all seek answers, however our on biases and background somethings conflict with God's Truth, and that can be a problem.

Yes, we most often reason with our human reasoning and not spiritual, so our conclusions are biased.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by disciple

Yes, we most often reason with our human reasoning and not spiritual, so our conclusions are biased.

They will be UNLESS that reasoning is based on God word and not that which seems right to a man.. IHS jim

[John T]

Originally Posted by Libby

Phoenix, that is, basically, my thinking. I would only amend that I do believe God is absolutely sovereign, but he does not, generally, exercise his sovereignty over man, especially, in regards to salvation. He desires that we all come to him and, I believe, he does draw us all...all the time...but, not all are receptive, and even though he is sovereign, he does allow individual agency.

As far as it goes in that statement, it is a Biblicaly-correct statement

He will not "force" us to come to him, but he will "aid" us, in coming to him, if we ask and desire it.

That is also true

Calvinists believe that God's people have been chosen (by God) before the foundation of the earth and they had no say in it, whatsoever.

No, it is NOT just Calvinists who believe that, it is ALL people who read and believe the Bible:
.

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined in eternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ

It was totally God's doing. Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.

That is a heresy called "double predestination" and the section below explains why:

This is the prologue or the explanation of Paul's position:
.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

.
This is the condition of the natural man, blinded

.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This is the reaction of God, looking at the problem from His perspective; He let mankind to continue their rebellion (see above)
.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

These are the fruits of their rebellion:
.

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

.
There you have it, Libby. You asked a question, and I gave you the answers from the Bible, and in their context .

So the next step is to ask you if you accept this, what the Bible says, or are you going to keep on tilting at windmills calling them John Calvin?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

That is a heresy called "double predestination" and the section below explains why:

.........or are you going to keep on tilting at windmills calling them John Calvin?

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...critics/page18
see post # 437

[alanmolstad]

John, perhaps if you listen to this recording..(start at the 6:00 point) by Walter Martin you might have better luck showing Jim what is Calvin's error...

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John, perhaps if you listen to this recording..(start at the 6:00 point) by Walter Martin you might have better luck showing Jim what is Calvin's error...

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

The sound in my computer doesn't work.. I don't know what's wrong with it.. I haven't hundreds of $$$ to find out.. Either tell me or not.. but I can't hear what the snipets of data you want me to see..

I have many friends, pastors and churches that appreciate our ministry from those circles inside Christianity. I also have many good friends in ministry and in congregations who do not believe in the "Five Points" but again, this set of doctrines does not redeem not excuse anyone. It is our view of Christ and our acceptance of His finished work which saves us.

I believe that God is completely sovereign and that He knows exactly who will, in the end, be saved.(http://www.ericbarger.com/calvinvsarminian.htm)

That is what I have been saying all along..

It is not God's perfect will that any be lost and yet He will not force Himself on anyone. He stands at the door and knocks.. He doesn't kick the door in (Rev 3:20). I believe it is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace that is your tripping point.. It is answered for me in God's omniscience.. He knows exactly who will, in the end, be saved. In that knowledge it is proper to say that those who believe in the Traditional Biblical Jesus are predestined to life, those that deny Him are predestined to God's wrath in the Lake of Fire..

Remember it is our view of Christ (We can't set up a garden gnome out in our back yards and call it Jesus and expect salvation because we believe in "Jesus") and our acceptance of His finished work on the cross which saves us. While I don't disbelieve anyone is NOT a Christian because they reject Calvinism, I hate having Calvinism used as a tool to doubt my faith.. I don't doubt Libby faith or her Arminian beliefs I doubt them because she has supported those that teach three Gods, has turned to the philosophy of the eastern cults to answers her questions about God and salvation while repeatedly attacked those that stand up for the True God and salvation By God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING. IHS jim

[Libby]

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John. I just do not accept the Calvinist interpretation of them, which has God choosing people who have not chosen him (in Calvinism they had no choice). I don't accept Calvin's "irresistable grace" (the "I" in TULIP) and I don't accept the idea that God chose people, arbitrarily, who didn't choose Him, until he forced it (total depravity - the "T" in TULIP).

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose Him.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The sound in my computer doesn't work..

Thank God they got computers at the library.....

Thats where I always end up when I got computer issues...all you need there is a set of head phones and you are good to go...

[John T]

Originally Posted by Libby

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John.

<SNIP>

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose Him.

What you posted is utterly contradictory to what the Scripture itself says. Please read ALL of this below, especially the explanation:
,

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined ineternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ


If you fully accep;t the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible Word to us humans, then you have any right to treat it like a Chinese restaurant menu where youcfhoose some from column A and some from column B. I do not believe that you are intentionally doing that, but that seems to be an accurate picture of the results you get.

Here is a little secret, just between us, OK? You do not have to accept the entire TULIP if you only believe that only one or two are an accurate representation of what the Bible says.

Secret 2: You do not have to understand the depths of a doctrine to say that it is true. In the example above, it is setting forth the U in the TULIP meaning Unconditional Election.

As a result of both of those secrets, i officially give you my permission to believe any of the parts of the TULIP that you want, and I will not tell anyone, either!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by John T

What you posted is utterly contradictory to what the Scripture itself says. Please read ALL of this below, especially the explanation:
,

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined ineternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ


If you fully accep;t the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible Word to us humans, then you have any right to treat it like a Chinese restaurant menu where youcfhoose some from column A and some from column B. I do not believe that you are intentionally doing that, but that seems to be an accurate picture of the results you get.

Here is a little secret, just between us, OK? You do not have to accept the entire TULIP if you only believe that only one or two are an accurate representation of what the Bible says.

Secret 2: You do not have to understand the depths of a doctrine to say that it is true. In the example above, it is setting forth the U in the TULIP meaning Unconditional Election.

As a result of both of those secrets, i officially give you my permission to believe any of the parts of the TULIP that you want, and I will not tell anyone, either!

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. .

LOL, You tell em girl!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thank God they got computers at the library.....

Thats where I always end up when I got computer issues...all you need there is a set of head phones and you are good to go...

I have a computer here that you can communicate with me on.. If Walter Martin disagreed with anything I have said here it shouldn't be hard to find a written statement. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.

Here is a free will question for you as it pertains to this subject. Since God knows what you will do tomorrow are you free to change those actions?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John. I just do not accept the Calvinist interpretation of them, which has God choosing people who have not chosen him (in Calvinism they had no choice).

Why don't you accept these verses Libby? Does it go against what YOU think is fair or not fair?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.

Another statement that shows your lack of understanding of Calvinism. People go to hell because they disobey God's commandments.

[Billyray]

John 6:7 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Libby you never did tell me what a person must do in order for the Father to give him to the Son. Can you clarify that for me?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Another statement that shows your lack of understanding of Calvinism. People go to hell because they disobey God's commandments.

But, a loving God would not discriminate and give only a "chosen few" the opportunity to turn to him and be saved. The Calvinist "god" is neither loving nor just.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:7 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Libby you never did tell me what a person must do in order for the Father to give him to the Son. Can you clarify that for me?

Yes, I have...several times, in fact.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is a free will question for you as it pertains to this subject. Since God knows what you will do tomorrow are you free to change those actions?

Yes. If I change my mind, God will know that, as well.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why don't you accept these verses Libby? Does it go against what YOU think is fair or not fair?

I do accept them. I just don't accept YOUR interpretation of them.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.

Where in the Bible can you find this sort of statement?

Originally Posted by Libby [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John.

<SNIP>

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose

Please cite the book, chapter and verse for the statement you make, and which I colored bold blue.

Please demonstrate where in my post, to which you replied "Gee Whiz" where your statement in bold blue is supported.

Of course you are en***led to your own heresy oops, I mean beliefs! (just kidding! ) However, I am just as en***led to ask if your belief founded on your personal convictions about the nature of God (which is also OK) or if it is based on what Scripture says alone. If you choose the former, and acknowledge that your beliefs about God are not found in Scripture that will not harm your salvation; and all that means is that your thought processes and theology are "works in progress".

If you choose the latter then we will continue to discuss your understanding of Scripture, especially the part that you believe that says in effect that God's predestination is determined by man's actions: He, therefore, chooses those who will choose .

Have a great day!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by John T

Where in the Bible can you find this sort of statement?

I refer you to disciple's post on another thread. It would be easier if we had this discussion all on one thread.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...l=1#post155481

Of course you are en***led to your own heresy oops, I mean beliefs! (just kidding! ) However, I am just as en***led to ask if your belief founded on your personal convictions about the nature of God (which is also OK) or if it is based on what Scripture says alone. If you choose the former, and acknowledge that your beliefs about God are not found in Scripture that will not harm your salvation; and all that means is that your thought processes and theology are "works in progress".

I admit to being a work in progress (as all of us are), but I also know that my beliefs can be supported by scripture. Are you familiar with the Armininan side of things, John?

If you choose the latter then we will continue to discuss your understanding of Scripture, especially the part that you believe that says in effect that God's predestination is determined by man's actions: He, therefore, chooses those who will choose .

Logically, I think it has to be that way, at least, to some degree. Otherwise, we are making God responsible for allowing many to go to hell, with absolutely no hope of being saved. That is not the behavior of a Good and Loving (and Just) God. A God who weeps over Jerusalem's unbelief.

Have a great day!

Thank you. Same to you.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Libby

I refer you to disciple's post on another thread. It would be easier if we had this discussion all on one thread.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...l=1#post155481

I admit to being a work in progress (as all of us are), but I also know that my beliefs can be supported by scripture. Are you familiar with the Armininan side of things, John?

Logically, I think it has to be that way, at least, to some degree. Otherwise, we are making God responsible for allowing many to go to hell, with absolutely no hope of being saved. That is not the behavior of a Good and Loving (and Just) God. A God who weeps over Jerusalem's unbelief.

Thank you. Same to you.

For the record, I HATE THE CALVINISM vs ARMINIANISM battles. There is too much heat, and little light there. The only "winner" is the Enemy of our souls.

I attended a seminary that was very Reformed, and one day in Middler Theology we had a fellow student, a senior step in for Dr. Rudolf. I do not know anything about his lecture excepting that a part of it was on the final exam. This student, several years my junior was a hyper Calvinist, and I just sat and endured his pontificating about the Apostle Paul. Finally, in a state of exuberance, he made the statement "Paul was a Calvinist" and I could bear it no longer.

I waited until there was a break in his lecture, and I put on my "innocent face" and I said "You said that 'Paul was a Calvinist' is that correct?" I paaused waiting for his nod and saying "Yes", then I quietly said, "I always thought that he was an Apostle." The entire room went silent for 30 seconds and then he resumed his lecture as if I did not just cut him off at his knees.

My point to you is that I do not believe that you can support the position that you stated in light of the fact that Ephesians 1:4 makes no equivocation as to the fact that all believers were chosen in Christ, and predestinated before the foundation of the world. But believing that does not alter the fact that there also some people who reject having anything to do with God for one specious reason, or another.

The example of Pharaoh and Moses is a good discussion of the issue. Pharaoh first rejected God, and then God hardened his heart; from Scripture that is abundantly clear, and that also seems to be the order of things in Scripture with other people, also.

So it seems to me (and I reserve the right to be wrong) is that predestination is only for the saved, and human will is only for those who reject Jesus Christ. Look at what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ in the Bible:


Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Therein lies the explanation where those who reject Christ and His salvation have no valid reason for doing so. That also makes a fence where the hyper Calvinist cannot go without violating Scripture

To sum it up, I believe that to make an "either/or" choice about one's salvation is surely not a Christ-honoring situation, As a result, I believe that to one degree or another it is "both...and". Our problem comes when we wish to ***ign proportions to human will or to sovereign predestination. So we must leave things somewhat unsettled. All I know is that I am saved by grace, and kept in my salvation in the same manner.

Can you go with that?

[alanmolstad]

I tend to think as did Walter Martin,,,,,,there is no no way to understand how free will and god's role mix,,,,,,they just do

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I tend to think as did Walter Martin,,,,,,there is no no way to understand how free will and god's role mix,,,,,,they just do

I see so you don't really deny God's hand in the mix and therefor you can't deny the teaching of Calvinism 100%.. All you know is that you don't know how it works.. It does does.. Ok I can go along with that.. Are we still friends? IHS jim