My daughter came into town yesterday.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, a loving God would not discriminate and give only a "chosen few" the opportunity to turn to him and be saved. The Calvinist "god" is neither loving nor just.

You call God unjust for having the knowledge of who will respond to His offered grace through faith in Jesus? Choosing those for life that He knows will accept that offer? Are you limiting God power to have that knowledge? In that knowledge you call God unjust, and hateful.. God help you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont have the slightest idea.

I never heard of Campbellites and have no connection to groups that are ***ociated with it.
Hence Apologette's introduction of the idea seems a bit weird to me..

Sometimes Alan, I dont think you have enough education of the restorationist movement to hold a discussion with the LDS.. They aren't just a revivalist they believe the whole of the Church fell and must be completely restored. Christians on the other had believe Jesus when He said that He would be with us always. Yes some error can creep in that is why we must always be revivalist. Constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to conduct His work within us and His Church, conforming us to the image of Jesus.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Sometimes Alan, I dont think you have enough education of the restorationist movement to hold a discussion with the LDS.. They aren't just a revivalist they believe the whole of the Church fell and must be completely restored. Christians on the other had believe Jesus when He said that He would be with us always. Yes some error can creep in that is why we must always be revivalist. Constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to conduct His work within us and His Church, conforming us to the image of Jesus.. IHS jim

the bible I know.....
But where the lady got this Campbellites stuff? ....there is the mystery...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I see so you don't really deny God's hand in the mix and therefor you can't deny the teaching of Calvinism 100%.. All you know is that you don't know how it works.. It does does.. Ok I can go along with that.. Are we still friends? IHS jim

I believe my position is the same as Walter Martin's.....

Some of the 5 points are correct or close enough..
Others are wrong no matter how you look at them......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe my position is the same as Walter Martin's.....

What about your position as it relates to the Bible. Isn't that suppose to be the standard?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by John T

For the record, I HATE THE CALVINISM vs ARMINIANISM battles. There is too much heat, and little light there. The only "winner" is the Enemy of our souls.

I attended a seminary that was very Reformed, and one day in Middler Theology we had a fellow student, a senior step in for Dr. Rudolf. I do not know anything about his lecture excepting that a part of it was on the final exam. This student, several years my junior was a hyper Calvinist, and I just sat and endured his pontificating about the Apostle Paul. Finally, in a state of exuberance, he made the statement "Paul was a Calvinist" and I could bear it no longer.

I waited until there was a break in his lecture, and I put on my "innocent face" and I said "You said that 'Paul was a Calvinist' is that correct?" I paaused waiting for his nod and saying "Yes", then I quietly said, "I always thought that he was an Apostle." The entire room went silent for 30 seconds and then he resumed his lecture as if I did not just cut him off at his knees.

My point to you is that I do not believe that you can support the position that you stated in light of the fact that Ephesians 1:4 makes no equivocation as to the fact that all believers were chosen in Christ, and predestinated before the foundation of the world. But believing that does not alter the fact that there also some people who reject having anything to do with God for one specious reason, or another.

The example of Pharaoh and Moses is a good discussion of the issue. Pharaoh first rejected God, and then God hardened his heart; from Scripture that is abundantly clear, and that also seems to be the order of things in Scripture with other people, also.

So it seems to me (and I reserve the right to be wrong) is that predestination is only for the saved, and human will is only for those who reject Jesus Christ. Look at what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ in the Bible:


Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Therein lies the explanation where those who reject Christ and His salvation have no valid reason for doing so. That also makes a fence where the hyper Calvinist cannot go without violating Scripture

To sum it up, I believe that to make an "either/or" choice about one's salvation is surely not a Christ-honoring situation, As a result, I believe that to one degree or another it is "both...and". Our problem comes when we wish to ***ign proportions to human will or to sovereign predestination. So we must leave things somewhat unsettled. All I know is that I am saved by grace, and kept in my salvation in the same manner.

Can you go with that?

A lot of the Calvinist doctrine is based on Paul's writings (not Jesus) which is another good reason to rethink it.

I can much easier go with the idea of predestination vs free will, as a mystery, than to decide it is settled on the Calvinist side.

I really think the argument gets weighed down, so to speak, in the "time space" continuum. God knows everything, from beginning to end. We do not. Which makes some things appear differently to us (in time) than it does to God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about your position as it relates to the Bible. Isn't that suppose to be the standard?

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

I guess this has been spun into an anti Calvinism thread instead of being a thread about sin being sin. I loved Walter Martin and still highly respect His memory but like you, like me he was a man and capable of forming opinions that may or may not align with scripture.. Just because we have differences about when a person is called by God for salvation doesn't change the FACT that He saved us by His grace through Faith in Jesus.. It doesn't change the fact that the Lord our God in one LORD..That He has always been God, never has He ever laid His Godhood down. Even in His mortal ministry Jesus was still God.. Does it matter all that much if a person believers that only those the Father call come to Jesus? Does it matter that much that the Father always knew those that would come and if He predestined all those He foreknew to life and all others He destined to His wrath? You can believe that He calls all men and gives salvation to only those that respond if you wish.. I personally see little difference between these two points. It's not worth all this argument. That would be a Martinistic statement. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

My hair is better looking than his. How's that for toe to toe?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

My hair is better looking than his. How's that for toe to toe?

Maybe you paid more for yours than he did.. heheheh IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

right around the 6:00 point we see Walter use the very same argument that i have used here many times.

Its nice for me to learn that the things I remember hearing back in the 1990s....are confirmed.

[Libby]

I've only listened to that part, Alan, but I so totally agree with him, there. Will listen to the rest of it later. We just got back from church and now we're off to see a movie. "Heaven is for real"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've only listened to that part, Alan, but I so totally agree with him, there. Will listen to the rest of it later. We just got back from church and now we're off to see a movie. "Heaven is for real"

i hope you come back and give us your review..

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

i hope you come back and give us your review..

A review of the movie, you mean? It was great! Very interesting and very touching story. I highly recommend it.

We also went to see an International Children's choir, at our church, this evening, and I was telling the Pastor about how good the movie was, and he said the book was even better. A lot more details in the book. So, I might download that on my Kindle.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if you were to listen to the recording, you would not need to ask questions that Walter martin talks about in great detail.......

Do you really think I have ever for one moment said that there is no predestined text?.....

You just don't believe it? How can we be predestined for life or for ****ation if Calvinism is so wrong? IHS jim

[Libby]

I really wish you could listen to Walter Martin's video, above, James. He explains it so well. He said, he rejects Calvin's argument simply on the basis that it is inconsistent with the character of God. Which is exactly what I have been saying for years, now.

I used to dislike Dr. Martin, based on some things I had heard about him, but in listening to his teaching and explanations, I have to say, he is quite an extraordinary teacher. He certainly knows the Bible backwards an forwards.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You call God unjust for having the knowledge of who will respond to His offered grace through faith in Jesus? Choosing those for life that He knows will accept that offer? Are you limiting God power to have that knowledge? In that knowledge you call God unjust, and hateful.. God help you.. IHS jim

No, to all of your questions (and these are things that I have never said). I do wish you could refrain from putting words in my mouth, which I have never, ever typed and do not believe.

God is NOT unjust, as I have said, many, many times, which is why he would not pick and choose "some" without giving everyone an opportunity. He chooses those who answer his call. Yes, he knows who those people are, before the foundation of the world. He is omnicient; he knows ALL, as I have said, many, many times before. So, why would you ask me those questions and accuse me of "hating God"??? False witness, James.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, to all of your questions (and these are things that I have never said). I do wish you could refrain from putting words in my mouth, which I have never, ever typed and do not believe.

God is NOT unjust, as I have said, many, many times, which is why he would not pick and choose "some" without giving everyone an opportunity. He chooses those who answer his call. Yes, he knows who those people are, before the foundation of the world. He is omnicient; he knows ALL, as I have said, many, many times before. So, why would you ask me those questions and accuse me of "hating God"??? False witness, James.

One reason and one reason only.. You deny the doctrine I see in God's foreknowledge.. That He has predestined some to eternal life and many to ****ation in the lake of fire.. That is all limited atonement and Irresistible grace are.. If you don't like the words then use others just don't judge me or others that use those words to describe God's omniscience.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

She isn't limiting God's KNOWLEDGE. She is recognizing that God limits His own CHOICES. He knows HOW to boss everyone around so they would always do what He would LIKE them to do, but He doesn't do that because He knows it would go against His plan. So it's not a matter of limited knowledge.

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

One reason and one reason only.. You deny the doctrine I see in God's foreknowledge.. That He has predestined some to eternal life and many to ****ation in the lake of fire.. That is all limited atonement and Irresistible grace are.. If you don't like the words then use others just don't judge me or others that use those words to describe God's omniscience.. IHS jim

From now on, when you "critique" my posts, James, please quote me. That way you won't inadvertently become a false witness, by trying to interpret what I'm saying. Don't "guess" at what I'm saying (I'm usually pretty plain spoken)...just quote me and ask questions, if you don't understand.

I don't deny predestination or foreknowledge. If you were really listening to me, I think you would find that we pretty much agree on this issue, because I have seen you say, multiple times, that God knows who will choose Him. He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.

P.S. You are the only one here who consistently misunderstands what I (and others!) are saying. The problem is with you, James.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

Why argue over it? If I join Libby and Alan in saying that Walter Martin is right on this issue and you are not, will you go back to saying it's not worth arguing over?

[Libby]

The funny thing is, I think James also agrees with you, me and Alan. He just hasn't figured it out, yet.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I really wish you could listen to Walter Martin's video, above, James. He explains it so well. He said, he rejects Calvin's argument simply on the basis that it is inconsistent with the character of God. Which is exactly what I have been saying for years, now.

Let's talk about this issue a little bit Libby.

God gives us commandments to follow and we each have a choice to either obey those commandments or disobey them. Agree or disagree?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't deny predestination or foreknowledge. If you were really listening to me, I think you would find that we pretty much agree on this issue, because I have seen you say, multiple times, that God knows who will choose Him. He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.

Since you believe in "predestination or foreknowledge" then you also must hold the position that there is a select group of people who will be saved and another select group of people that will not be saved and that each group is fixed from before the foundation of the world i.e. before anyone of us is even born. Agree?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.