My daughter came into town yesterday.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

You ask Libby a question about views that actually only belong to James!

On the other hand, James asks Libby to defend ideas that she has not advanced!

Billy, both you and James are painting the non-Calvinist position with a false brush.....you are questioning ideas that are unfounded, you are objecting to things no one is talking about...





In the recording of Walter Martin where he talks about the many false ideas that Calvin taught, Walter also talks about a few of the false ideas that modern Calvinists teach.
One of these false ideas is to teach that God knew who to predestine by looking into the future and learning who of mankind would finally believe in Christ, and that is how God knew who to predestine from the beginning of time.

Walter Martin says that this answer will cause the Calvinist to smile and tell everyone "They have figured it out!"

Well guess what?...they have not figured out anything!


All they have done is invent their own made-up answer to a question that cant be answered*.....by the use of a answer that is not found in the Bible and cant be supported by Scripture at all.



(* The bible simply does not answer the question about why some are predestined to heaven. The Bible does not tell us on what grounds God does things like this. It's an unknown)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

actually what I see you doing is inventing your own private meanings to things, and then attacking other people when they cast doubt on your private views.

James, the bible teaches that for unknown reason or reasons, the people that come to believe in Christ are said to have been predestined to this fate from the beginning.

That is what the bible clearly teaches.

The bible does not teach that God predestined some to hell.

Rather in fact, the Bible clearly goes out of its way to teach that God has it in his mind that all who are born come to have faith in Christ....that no person be condemned to Hell.....that God so loved the "Whole World"...not just some of it...

That when Christ was lifted up on the cross he drew "all men" to himself......all of us...the good and the bad, the believers and the nonbelievers.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Why argue over it? If I join Libby and Alan in saying that Walter Martin is right on this issue and you are not, will you go back to saying it's not worth arguing over?

You are free to say what ever you feel is right.. I am not the moderator here.. I am done discussing Calvinism.. I give up they win.. Calvinism is evil and if a person believes in it's tenets they will go to hell.. God can't possible know who will be saved and who will be ****ed.. He hasn't the power to see the future. He can barely remember parts of the past. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

Welcome to my world

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Welcome to my world

It is easy to name call but when the rubber meets the road and you actually have to back up your position from the entire Bible--not just bits and pieces--you can't do so. Right BigJ?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is easy to name call but when the rubber meets the road and you actually have to back up your position from the entire Bible--not just bits and pieces--you can't do so. Right BigJ?

Who is name calling? I am merely pointing out that he now gets to deal with the frustration of those who do not see the Bible the same way he does and he can talk until he is blue in the face to explain and they don't see. I have dealt with this many times. I am merely consoling him to say I understand.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You are free to say what ever you feel is right.. I am not the moderator here.. I am done discussing Calvinism.. I give up they win.. Calvinism is evil and if a person believes in it's tenets they will go to hell.. God can't possible know who will be saved and who will be ****ed.. He hasn't the power to see the future. He can barely remember parts of the past. IHS jim

See, this is exactly what Alan is talking about, when he says you argue against positions that no one has ever held. Not one person here has said that God is not omniscient and can't see the future. No one.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Who is name calling? I am merely pointing out that he now gets to deal with the frustration of those who do not see the Bible the same way he does and he can talk until he is blue in the face to explain and they don't see. I have dealt with this many times. I am merely consoling him to say I understand.

But Alan doesn't refute us with the Bible, nor do you. You simply ignore the many verses we have given you and then you jump to other verses. As I said before you can't pick and choose which verses you like and disregard the others. If you erase all of the parts of the Bible that you would like erased then sure I would agree with your position. But I can't ignore all of those verses because they are God's word and they weren't put there to be ignored.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

See, this is exactly what Alan is talking about, when he says you argue against positions that no one has ever held. Not one person here has said that God is not omniscient and can't see the future. No one.

So your position is that there is a fixed group of individuals will be saved and a fixed group of individuals who will not be saved and these groups are fixed prior to any of these individuals were even born? Is that a correct ***essment of your position as it relates to predestination/election?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's talk about this issue a little bit Libby.

God gives us commandments to follow and we each have a choice to either obey those commandments or disobey them. Agree or disagree?

I agree...but, do you? I think the issue is more about desire than choice. We've been through this before, Billy.

I agree that our desires are of the flesh, until God starts drawing us. I think where we differ is in what that "drawing" means. I believe we still have the ability to turn away, even when God is drawing us. We have a true choice...to respond or not...and that God draws us all.

Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that whomever God draws will come to him..and that, it is the actual drawing, that changes man's heart, allowing him to choose God. You believe this to be true for a select few. God only draws those whom He knows will, positively, come to him.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your position is that there is a fixed group of individuals will be saved and a fixed group of individuals who will not be saved and these groups are fixed prior to any of these individuals were even born? Is that a correct ***essment of your position as it relates to predestination/election?

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.

So a person is either saved or unsaved before that person is even born and there is not chance that this will ever change. This is your position. Correct?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.

Your main issue seems to be accountability so let's look at that for a minute.

1 . We are all given commandments to follow

2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments

3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.


Do you agree or disagree with the statements above?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

See, this is exactly what Alan is talking about, when he says you argue against positions that no one has ever held. Not one person here has said that God is not omniscient and can't see the future. No one.

LOL......we all see him attacking windmills......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

Julie.....he just goes and goes....LOL

What was the name of that one guy who attacked windmills because he thought they were something else?....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your main issue seems to be accountability so let's look at that for a minute.

1 . We are all given commandments to follow

I don't know that we are all "given commandments". I believe we are born with a rudimentary understanding of right from wrong (which is a part of "God's image" in us).

2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments

I believe we have the "ability" and often even the "desire" to do good, at times.

3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.

We are responsible, because we do have a "true" choice. We would not be responsible, if we had no real ability to exercise our free will. If our will were "blinded" or "dead", in part or in full, then how could we be held responsible?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So a person is either saved or unsaved before that person is even born and there is not chance that this will ever change. This is your position. Correct?

I would never put it that way. Does God know who will come to him? If he is omniscient, then yes, he does. And, yes, he does know who will choose him, even before they are born.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I would never put it that way. Does God know who will come to him? If he is omniscient, then yes, he does. And, yes, he does know who will choose him, even before they are born.

the beauty of God's system is that it works right along side our Free Will...
God never has to remove a person's free will in order to predestine them to glory....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him?

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

Above is your entire post unaltered. Below I break it into parts because a lot of what you say I agree with. I differ only in the conclusion that you draw.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him

I agree that choosing Christ is obeying Him

Originally Posted by Phoenix

We are commanded to choose Him

I agree.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

if we choose Him we are being obedient

I agree

Originally Posted by Phoenix

then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

I would say that based on our predestination we will choose Christ.

Just a note. When I first came out of mormonism--if I were to cl***ify my position in hindsight--I would say that I was "Arminian" in my beliefs even though I didn't really know the difference at that point in time. Over the years of reading the Bible--particularly the NT--again and again--I see more and more evidence for the Reformed position and I have confidence that the Reformed position is the correct one. But for me it was a slow shift over the years and I think in part this was due to my LDS upbringing i.e. indoctrination.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

I don't think we can think this.

To believe that God foreordain/predestined us based on our decision to follow Christ is to make god reactive to us.
This would mean that God did something "after" he saw what we did.
And.....this means God is held in time.....held in the grasp of time.

that is not the God of the bible.

So I think this means you cant say that God predestined us based on what we end up doing.

Nor can you say that what we end up doing is the result of predestination because that seems to take away man's free will.


So this means, that it goes like this....The same people that god foreknew he also predestined, and that all of this was completely within the context of man having always and at all times "Free Will".

[alanmolstad]

So God both Foreknew and Predestined us to become believers.
God never foreknew before he also predestined.

One thing does not come before the other...

God is not held by time like that...he has no "later".



So God foreknew us as he also predestined us.

And that this was done in such a way as to maintain our human Free Will at all times.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

To believe that God foreordain/predestined us based on our decision to follow Christ is to make god reactive to us.

Alan is it fair to say that your position is that man elected himself by his own actions/works?

Could you define predestination, election, and free will so I can have a clear picture of how you are using these terms?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

And that this was done in such a way as to maintain our human Free Will at all times.

Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?