My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Libby]

Amen. Especially the part about "could not" vs "would not"..

(You all have been very busy here today! )

[alanmolstad]

Libby....well done!

You get 50 points for that correct answer and can now sit at the head of the cl***!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/will

I googled...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billyray
Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires.

Alan
i noticed you kinda stopped quoting my sentence a bit short there....I know that was an accident on your part But i would feel better if you posted my whole idea.....then said "Amen"

As did you with mine in the same exact post that you complained about me shortening your post. A bit hypocritical on your part don't you think? Below is my post that you quoted in full.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires. So what is the difference between what you believe and what I believe in this area?

(BTW I would never use the term "free will" because neither your position nor mine matches up with the definition of this word)

BTW was there a specific point you were trying to make with your criticism that I quoted part of your post rather than the entire thing--which of course you did as well with my post?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's look at these one by one.




Billyray 4. I take it that we agree with the above 3 points thus far (if not please let me know). If a person disobeys God's commandments who is to blame for their disobedience?

Before we decide that we are agreeing on this, let me ask you a question. Is it possible for man to have the desire to choose good or God of his own free will?

Pretty sure we are still disagreeing on the definition of God's "drawing" and what that means for man.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Could you define... free will?

Sure I would be happy to Alan. But I have already do so multiple times now. Here it is again for you.

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Would not" tells us that the error the people made was their own...

Anyone who does not keep the commandments is in error and they are to blame.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Could not" would mean that the people were doomed from the start.

If anyone keeps all of the commandments they would live with God. Those who do not keep all of the commandments are invited to come to Christ and if they do they certainly would be saved. Those who disobey the commandments and do not come to Christ do so because that is what they "choose" to do (what you would call free will).

BTW don't forget that your viewpoint also condemns a specific set group of individuals to hell before those people are even born. But you must have forgotten that fact.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Could not " would mean that even before the people were born it had already been determined that they could not come to Jesus.

Don't forget that your position also holds that a person's fate is sealed before that person is even born and that there is nothing that can change that fact.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Could not" would have meant that the people were "made to fail"

The statement "made to fail" shows your ignorance of the Calvinist position. Nobody is forcing a person to choose to disobey the commandments nor is anyone forcing anyone to reject Christ. These are choices that they make because that is what they choose to do. If a person choose to obey the commandments they would live with God again OR if they placed their faith in Christ they would be saved--but they choose what they want which is to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Is it possible for man to have the desire to choose good or God of his own free will?

Each person has the opportunity and the choice to either obey the commandments or disobey them. They also have the opportunity and the choice to either accept Christ or reject Him. Every person is held responsible for his or her choices. As far as "desire"--people choose what they desire and those who are not regenerated will choose to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Pretty sure we are still disagreeing on the definition of God's "drawing" and what that means for man.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I think you are right it appears that we are in disagreement on this issue. Let's look at John 6 one more time. Can man on his own free will come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father? Or is there some Divine intervention that must take place in order for man to be able to come unto Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Each person has the opportunity and the choice to either obey the commandments or disobey them. They also have the opportunity and the choice to either accept Christ or reject Him. Every person is held responsible for his or her choices. As far as "desire"--people choose what they desire and those who are not regenerated will choose to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

Okay. What Biblical reference are you using for your belief about regeneration?

Do you consider God's drawing as regenerating?

Doesn't regeneration occur after a person accepts Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay. What Biblical reference are you using for your belief about regeneration?

Do you consider God's drawing as regenerating?

Doesn't regeneration occur after a person accepts Christ?

No regeneration occurs first. Remember unless a person is changed then his "desire" is to "choose" (Alan's definition of free will) to reject Christ and disobey the commandments.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No regeneration occurs first. Remember unless a person is changed then his "desire" is to "choose" (Alan's definition of free will) to reject Christ and disobey the commandments.

Well, that is still a source of disagreement....or misunderstanding.

Where does it say in the Bible, specifically, that we must first be regenerated, in order accept Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where does it say in the Bible, specifically, that we must first be regenerated, in order accept Christ?

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Let's start (again) with this verse before we move on to look at others. According to this verse man on his own can't come to Christ (he is unable to do so) without some divine intervention that enables them to do so.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Let's start (again) with this verse before we move on to look at others. According to this verse man on his own can't come to Christ (he is unable to do so) without some divine intervention that enables them to do so.

Yes, but again, you are interpreting "drawing" to mean regeneration. Drawing (even YOUR definition) doesn't mean giving someone a new heart. That's completely something else, again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, but again, you are interpreting "drawing" to mean regeneration. Drawing (even YOUR definition) doesn't mean giving someone a new heart. That's completely something else, again.

Salvation or "order of salvation" is not just one step but a succession of steps: predestine, election . . .regeneration . . .death, resurrection. .etc. In verse 44 those who are drawn are raised so you see a continuum from early to late in the "order of salvation".

The reason that I keep bringing up these same verses over and over again is because most of the issues that we have discussed are packed in these three verses below. So what can we glean from just these three verses below

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1. In verse 36 you see those who are following after Christ and asking him questions about salvation, have seen his miracles, and yet are not saved. Why not since they have had all of this exposure to his teachings, miracles, and close contact? Christ tells us in verse 37. Those in verse 36 did not come to Christ because they were not given to Him by the Father. Those who are given to the Son by the Father will ALL come to him. This is the doctrine of election clearly presented in these two verses.

2. Now let's look at verse 44. What do we learn here? There is something in natural man which precludes him from coming to Christ on his own. As we learn in other verses in the NT, man is dead in sins and tresp***es and his desire is to sin and he wants nothing to do with Christ. Nobody is forcing him to sin--rather that is what he desires and what he chooses. So man on his own in this state is unable to come to Christ and must be changed in some way in order to do so. Notice in this verse you start with unregenerate man and progress along the order of salvation all the way towards the end with resurrection. And don't miss the point that those who are drawn ARE raised.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation or "order of salvation" is not just one step but a succession of steps: predestine, election . . .regeneration . . .death, resurrection. .etc. In verse 44 those who are drawn are raised so you see a continuum from early to late in the "order of salvation".

The reason that I keep bringing up these same verses over and over again is because most of the issues that we have discussed are packed in these three verses below. So what can we glean from just these three verses below

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1. In verse 36 you see those who are following after Christ and asking him questions about salvation, have seen his miracles, and yet are not saved. Why not since they have had all of this exposure to his teachings, miracles, and close contact? Christ tells us in verse 37. Those in verse 36 did not come to Christ because they were not given to Him by the Father. Those who are given to the Son by the Father will ALL come to him. This is the doctrine of election clearly presented in these two verses.

2. Now let's look at verse 44. What do we learn here? There is something in natural man which precludes him from coming to Christ on his own. As we learn in other verses in the NT, man is dead in sins and tresp***es and his desire is to sin and he wants nothing to do with Christ. Nobody is forcing him to sin--rather that is what he desires and what he chooses. So man on his own in this state is unable to come to Christ and must be changed in some way in order to do so. Notice in this verse you start with unregenerate man and progress along the order of salvation all the way towards the end with resurrection. And don't miss the point that those who are drawn ARE raised.

Ah, yes, the order of salvation. I used to watch this discussion on CARM. This would be at the crux of much of the disagreements between Arminians and Calvinists.

Calvinists believe "regeneration" is high on the list...drawing and then regeneration. Arminians believe it is not the second or even third stage. Grace and then faith come first.

I donno, Billy. All I know is, man cannot be held responsible, if he is "unable" to come to Christ of his own free will.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Ah, yes, the order of salvation. I used to watch this discussion on CARM. This would be at the crux of much of the disagreements between Arminians and Calvinists.

Calvinists believe "regeneration" is high on the list...drawing and then regeneration. Arminians believe it is not the second or even third stage. Grace and then faith come first.

I donno, Billy. All I know is, man cannot be held responsible, if he is "unable" to come to Christ of his own free will.

I think this is a difficult doctrine to accept from a human perspective because it comes across to many as being unfair. But there are many things in the Bible from our perspective that may seem unfair--yet they are plainly taught and what is also taught is that from God's perspective they are fair. Anyway if you have time re read Romans 9 because Paul brings up an objection that is raised when this doctrine is taught and it sounds eerily familiar to the one that you raised. Romans 9 is a tough chapter for many--yet there it is in the middle of the NT. What I have tried to do over the last several years is simply read the text and accept what is written without trying to bring in preconceived ideas etc. When I first left mormonism for Christianity I would cl***ify my position as Arminian in hindsight--even though I really had no clue what that was at the time, and I think that reason for this is because this position is much closer to the lds position and at that point I too relied on human reasoning to some extent as a basis truth rather than simply reading the text as written. Anyway enjoy chapter 9 if you decide to give it a read.

[alanmolstad]

would not means you could but did not.

could not means you never could

jesus said "would not"

[alanmolstad]

Billy you sent me a comment that seemed to suggest that you did not disagree with my understanding of Free will.
While this is encouraging to me as it seems to suggest that you are not as far gone as I may have thought., I still wanted to make sure so I re-posted the things I have said I understand about the over-all concept of a person's Free Will and asked you to say "Amen" to my understandings.

I still would like you to read what i said and tell me if you can say "Amen"?



Basically what have I said?
Now I have said over and over that our fate is not set when we are born.
We have free will, and this means that the future is wide open for us and we can decide to make our own way in the world free of anyone's control.

I have said that I also believe that if we were made in such a way as to be totally unable to do something, then we cant be held to blame for not being able to do that.

Thats just the way it is...


Free Will is not only the "ability" to make a decision, but its the ability to make a decision that is free of anyone's power to force us to pick only one thing over another....

This "freedom from other influence" is the part of my quote that was dropped that I was worried about, as it's the most important part of my understanding of Free Will and by dropping it a person can come to a totally wrong conclusion about what i believe.

Free Will means we are not under another's will.....
that's why we say it's "free"

So this is way better than just being able to make a simple decision, as even animals are able to make decisions.
But for the most part the decisions of animals are under the influence of instinct.
This means that for the most part animals lack real Free Will like we enjoy.

We are able to make real choices.
When I decide on something, when I decide between two things it's because I think one is better than the other.
No power on earth or in heaven is controlling my decisions.

If my decision was under someone else's control, then it would not be my decision in the first place!

But this is also why I (and I alone) am responsible for the decisions I make.
I cant duck-out of the blame for a committing a sin by pointing to God and saying, "But you made me like this!"

God cant make a person in such a manner as with no chance at all to believe in Christ, and then later blame him for not coming to Christ.

If God made me and predetermined that i would fail...or that i would sin, then I would reject that God
and I would feel good about rejecting that false-god because it would later turn out to be Satan anyway...

So This is why we know for a fact that god did not ever "predetermine" that some go to hell.....

This is why God cant make people as designed to fail...."made to fail"

Now a lot of people think that god does design some people with a built-in design that will cause them to fail and that these people never actually had a chance.....Some people actually believe that when these"lost"people do fail it is in keeping with God's design and plan for their life.


In other words, "Made To Fail"

They are wrong.

[alanmolstad]

Now a lot of people get mixed up on the word "draw" .

When the Bible tells us that no one comes to christ except that are first 'drawn' by the father, a lot of people get the idea that this "drawing" is when a person is changed.
It's not.

Other people think that this "drawing" is an unstoppable force that overtakes a person's free will......
Its not.

I remember back in my days in Bible School that we had to study how we are saved, and what it means to be "drawn" by the father.
i read a lot of things on the topic, but I think it was the words of luther that are still with me.

if I remember this correctly (It's been many years) the thing Luther said is that the act of God drawing us is like a romance.
It's gentle.
It's quiet.
It's like when a boy sees a girl he likes and tries to get her attention.
It's being attracted to .

And perhaps that too is a way better word that gives us a better understanding of what God the Father is doing in our lives when He draws us to the Son.....He is "attracting" us

All this is always done hand-in-hand with our Free Will.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Amen?.......

amen?.......

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

would not means you could but did not.

could not means you never could

jesus said "would not"

There are two kinds of scriptures that I think shows that all men have the
chance to be saved. The following contain a command to believe.

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all
men everywhere to repent”. Acts 17:30

“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:22

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent,
and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Mat 11:28

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son
Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”1 John 3:23

“On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
“If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.” John 7:37

These show the possibility that a man can believe unto salvation.

“But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” John 5:40

“forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to
fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.”
1 Thess 2:16

[Libby]

Good posts, Alan and disciple.

I remember an Arminian poster, over on CARM, many years ago, explained the "drawing process" as a give and take, between God and man. God draws, and if man responds positively, God continues to draw, a little at a time, man responds, a little, God draws, man responds, etc. It's a process. And, as Alan described, it is an attracting, an allure....not a "dragging" process, which eliminates man's will, altogether.

If man does not respond, God does not give up, but eventually, if the person is not responding, they will become less and less aware of God's "drawing".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think this is a difficult doctrine to accept from a human perspective because it comes across to many as being unfair. But there are many things in the Bible from our perspective that may seem unfair--yet they are plainly taught and what is also taught is that from God's perspective they are fair. Anyway if you have time re read Romans 9 because Paul brings up an objection that is raised when this doctrine is taught and it sounds eerily familiar to the one that you raised. Romans 9 is a tough chapter for many--yet there it is in the middle of the NT. What I have tried to do over the last several years is simply read the text and accept what is written without trying to bring in preconceived ideas etc. When I first left mormonism for Christianity I would cl***ify my position as Arminian in hindsight--even though I really had no clue what that was at the time, and I think that reason for this is because this position is much closer to the lds position and at that point I too relied on human reasoning to some extent as a basis truth rather than simply reading the text as written. Anyway enjoy chapter 9 if you decide to give it a read.

Billy, I don't think it just "comes across" as unfair. The fact is, it is unfair, which is why many cannot accept it, as coming from God.

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, I don't think it just "comes across" as unfair. The fact is, it is unfair, which is why many cannot accept it, as coming from God.

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?

I brought up Romans 9 because your objection to the doctrine of election was brought by Paul as an objection in the middle of chapter 9. I thought you might catch it but perhaps you didn't re read it last night. Here it is.

Romans 9: 19 One of you [Libby, Alan, BigJ. . .] will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Libby can you tell me what this section of scripture from Romans 9 is teaching us? (Note--two nations came out of Jacob and Esau but this p***age in context is speaking about the twins themselves--not nations. I mention this because I didn't want you to try that explanation because it doesn't fit here.)