My daughter came into town yesterday.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Scripture then goes on to say that "Jesus was troubled in spirit".

I know that he knew, but it still seemed to make him sad, didn't it?

very sad...very upset....all the things that a man would feel....the same things you and I would feel at that time...Because Jesus was fully human.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and what about the parable of the sower, where some of the seed falls on shallow ground and springs up (thrives) for awhile, only to die when the sun comes out and scorches it, and they, then, withered. Seems like Judas could have been like that?

its hard to say....

From the text it seems like that perhaps Judas never believed for a even moment...I notice the way he addressed Jesus was different...like he never for a moment thought Jesus was anything more than a meal ticket...

In the Text we also learn that Judas used to hold onto the money bag, and he would help himself to the money.
this really puts Judas into the place of being a thief from the beginning and never really a believer at all.

However...I would also point out "Who put him in charge of the money?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?

Judas made the choices that he wanted to make but his choices were limited. So did Judas have free will in the way you are using this term the answer is no. If you want to use the term "free will" to mean that he made choices and those choices were what he desired then the answer would be yes.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?

Could Judas have chosen to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Could Judas have chosen to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ?

none of us are asked to do things we cant do.....

jesus wept because the people 'would not'.....thats different than 'could not'

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

none of us are asked to do things we cant do.....

jesus wept because the people 'would not'.....thats different than 'could not'

I started a new thread on "free will" why don't we continue the discussion there. But why don't we agree on a definition for this word since it means different things to different people. I provided a dictionary definition again. If you want to agree on that then we can proceed.

[alanmolstad]

you better also post the link to your definition ....so we know its correctly posted

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying....Because in what looks like you are agreeing with me there is a slight hint that you are not...

The hint you dont agree with me is found when I say, "Judas had Free Will" and you come back with "Certainly Judas made choices"
I have to ask for clarification because my cat is able to make choices...heck the fish in my fish tank make choices!
But their decisions are not from a Free Will.
So it very possible to make choices and not have a Free will.


So to be sure.....Let me ask you a question.

Judas had Free Will......Yes or no?

Free Will as defined in whatever reference dictionary you want to use...I don't care....


But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?

yes or no?...........

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes or no?...........

As I said above I started a new thread on this topic let's continue the discussion there. I have asked you to agree on a definition OR even give me your definition for how you are defining "free will". Let's start with that.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...3383-Free-Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its hard to say....

From the text it seems like that perhaps Judas never believed for a even moment...I notice the way he addressed Jesus was different...like he never for a moment thought Jesus was anything more than a meal ticket...

In the Text we also learn that Judas used to hold onto the money bag, and he would help himself to the money.
this really puts Judas into the place of being a thief from the beginning and never really a believer at all.

However...I would also point out "Who put him in charge of the money?"

Also, why did Jesus give him the same powers as the other disciples?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying....Because in what looks like you are agreeing with me there is a slight hint that you are not...

The hint you dont agree with me is found when I say, "Judas had Free Will" and you come back with "Certainly Judas made choices"
I have to ask for clarification because my cat is able to make choices...heck the fish in my fish tank make choices!
But their decisions are not from a Free Will.
So it very possible to make choices and not have a Free will.


So to be sure.....Let me ask you a question.

Judas had Free Will......Yes or no?

Free Will as defined in whatever reference dictionary you want to use...I don't care....


But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?

Billy.....yu must havep overlooked this question?

yes or no?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Also, why did Jesus give him the same powers as the other disciples?

why not?.........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billy.....yu must havep overlooked this question?

yes or no?

............calvinist hate to even say the term free will....LOL

I knew you could not just say a yes or no........

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

why not?.........

The author of the article, I was reading, claimed that Jesus would not bestow such powers on a non-believer.

I don't know, really....I'm just reading various opinions on the subject.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

............calvinist hate to even say the term free will....LOL

I knew you could not just say a yes or no........

That is certainly not true Alan. But I still have no idea what you mean by this term since you haven't given me a definition of how you are using it. If you agree with the dictionary definition then perhaps we could proceed with out discussion--and since I have started a thread on exactly this topic could you try to maintain the discussion in that threat so that we are not discussing the same thing in separated threads.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billy.....yu must havep overlooked this question?

yes or no?

No I didn't overlook your question. Perhaps you overlooked my answer but here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

As I said above I started a new thread on this topic let's continue the discussion there. I have asked you to agree on a definition OR even give me your definition for how you are defining "free will". Let's start with that.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...3383-Free-Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The author of the article, I was reading, claimed that Jesus would not bestow such powers on a non-believer.

I don't know, really....I'm just reading various opinions on the subject.

Libby since you believe that God looks into the future and knows what will happen with 100% certainty and that these events will not nor cannot change. Why do you think Jesus picked Judas?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby since you believe that God looks into the future and knows what will happen with 100% certainty and that these events will not nor cannot change. Why do you think Jesus picked Judas?

I've already said that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill God's purpose.

Not sure why you're asking, though?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and what about the parable of the sower, where some of the seed falls on shallow ground and springs up (thrives) for awhile, only to die when the sun comes out and scorches it, and they, then, withered. Seems like Judas could have been like that?

No, Libby, Judas always had a devil! The elect of God do not wither away or become Hindus or Mormons. They know their Master's voice and follow Him and a STRANGER (NAMED JOE SMITH OR YOGANANDA) THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW. This doesn't take a genius to understand!

[Libby]

That's your interpretation, Apologette. I would hardly call it the last word on the subject. There are a lot of opinions out there from Christians of varying belief, on that subject.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's your interpretation, Apologette. I would hardly call it the last word on the subject. There are a lot of opinions out there from Christians of varying belief, on that subject.

Explain one other that Christians hold.. NOT those of the cults but those held by Christian.. Just one that differs.. This what I meant about being divisive here Libby.. You just won't stop.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Explain one other that Christians hold.. NOT those of the cults but those held by Christian.. Just one that differs.. This what I meant about being divisive here Libby.. You just won't stop.. IHS jim

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

Sorry you can't remember too long.. I asked you to show me any differences in Christianity in the saving doctrines of the faith.. There are none.. To a Christin it's all about Jesus.. It has nothing to do with one thing we do.. Not one thing! Not baptism, nor even the works that the Apostle James calls the Church to accomplish.. because there are no differences in the Church where ever She is all her members will have the same doctrine on salvation.. There is one God, we are saved by His grace through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES. It is a GIFT from God, Not of works so that no man can boast.. The cults do not share that faith. The teach different Gods, different ways to gain their gods salvation.. That is what we see in mormonism.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've already said that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill God's purpose.

Not sure why you're asking, though?

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save the Jews from Rome.. IHS jim