My daughter came into town yesterday.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save Jesus from Rome.. IHS jim

oddest sentence in this whole topic.....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

I didn't say that. I think it's possible that he was a believer that fell away. Like the seed that sprouted for a few days and then withered.

It's also possible that he was never a believer. I really don't know. I think this possibility has more problems, like why would Jesus give him the same healing powers, as his other disciples? Why would Judas have followed him, to begin with, when, in the beginning, there seemed to be nothing for him to gain, by doing so?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save Jesus from Rome.. IHS jim

Calvinists don't believe that God is drawing ALL people, as you said you believe.

[alanmolstad]

should we chip in and get him a book on what the Calvinists believe?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

should we chip in and get him a book on what the Calvinists believe?

...........

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I didn't say that. I think it's possible that he was a believer that fell away. Like the seed that sprouted for a few days and then withered.

Let's take a look at your example about the seed and see if we can glean any information. But first do you think that the seed that you mentioned is a true believer or would you characterize it as a tare?

[alanmolstad]

the seed is the same seed....its the ground that is different...

[Libby]

The Bible calls it a seed. A seed that grows for a time and then withers.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Bible calls it a seed. A seed that grows for a time and then withers.

Luke 8
5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up.
6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”

Of the four examples given how many yielded a crop?

[Libby]

The seeds that fell on good soil, of course.

The others were still seeds that did grow for awhile.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The seeds that fell on good soil, of course.

The others were still seeds the did grow for awhile.

But they didn't produce any crop. They were never saved.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But they didn't produce any crop. They were never saved.

What is it you consider a "crop"?

Believers don't start out fully ready to be a part of the "crop"...that doesn't mean they are not believers from the very beginning.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What is it you consider a "crop"?

Believers don't start out fully ready to be a part of the "crop"...that doesn't mean they are not believers from the very beginning.

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of this--he had faith and was saved but he did not have any works. But I don't think that was the point of this parable. I think Christ was trying to show that the church will be filled with both true believers (wheat) and unconverted followers. He gives us a couple of ways to spot the difference between the two. First the unconverted fall away because they were never truly converted in the first place and they have no staying power. Second those who have saving faith have works that flow because of their faith. This is the true meaning of the verse in James "faith without works is dead"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of this--he had faith and was saved but he did not have any works. But I don't think that was the point of this parable. I think Christ was trying to show that the church will be filled with both true believers (wheat) and unconverted followers. He gives us a couple of ways to spot the difference between the two. First the unconverted fall away because they were never truly converted in the first place and they have no staying power. Second those who have saving faith have works that flow because of their faith. This is the true meaning of the verse in James "faith without works is dead"

Like the "followers" of Jesus, who fell away when they heard "hard sayings"..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Like the "followers" of Jesus, who fell away when they heard "hard sayings"..

John 6
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Correct. Not all men are drawn to Christ. Those who are drawn will come to Christ and will be raised. Those who are not are like the seed who follow for a short time but fall away.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Correct. Not all men are drawn to Christ. Those who are drawn will come to Christ and will be raised. Those who are not are like the seed who follow for a short time but fall away.

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He is speaking about those who are following Him and says that they don't believe. Why because they weren't drawn by the Father.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".

people do things for all kinds of reasons.....remember that people always have free will.....

We hear many voices.....the stomach is a voice people listened to when they were fed one day and showed up the next to get fed again...

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

oddest sentence in this whole topic.....

You are right I fixed it.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Calvinists don't believe that God is drawing ALL people, as you said you believe.

That depends on what you mean by draw.. I see it and God bringing all those He has a foreknowledge of into the Church.. Is it His perfect will that all come to Jesus? Yes! Can't we leave it at that? As far as losing one's salvation.. I don't buy into that at all.. I do believe that a person can believe like the devils believe and still not gain salvation.. That is how I see the "faith" of Judas. A head faith but not a heart faith.. As I tried to say before a faith that Jesus was going to save Israel from Rome.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

We were speaking of interpretations.. I asked you to explain just one difference that CHRISTIAN hold that differ from an other on the saving doctrines taught in the Bible.. That wasn't garbled at all. My mistake was thinking you had the intellectual powers to understand that interpretation was the subject under discussion.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Oh please, James. You don't even know that you are not a Calvinist.

Your post was not understandable, as is true for many of them.

One big difference in denominations is baptism. Some baptize infants (as my church does) and others are very against infant baptism. Some churches believe baptism is necessary. Others do not.

Some churches believe you must receive the Holy Ghost in the form of speaking in tongues (or you are not a true believer).

Those are two good examples, off the top of my head.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Oh please, James. You don't even know that you are not a Calvinist.

Your post was not understandable, as is true for many of them.

One big difference in denominations is baptism. Some baptize infants (as my church does) and others are very against infant baptism. Some churches believe baptism is necessary. Others do not.

Some churches believe you must receive the Holy Ghost in the form of speaking in tongues (or you are not a true believer).

Those are two good examples, off the top of my head.

Do any Christian churches believe that baptism is a saving ordinance? I said that there are no difference among Christian churches in their doctrines of salvation..

I read all my post through out loud to my wife.. She understands them.. Why you can't? Well I think you know why I believe you can't understand..

The churches you speak of as not holding that a person is saved until they speak in tongues are those that are Modalistsm and in being so are not Christian.. These put something we can do in the place of all that Jesus did to bring salvation to mankind.. We could say that mormonism teaches that we must endure to the end in righteousness and it would have the same effect.. No CHRISTIAN church has any differences to any other on doctrines that bare on salvation . Here is my quote "I asked you to explain just one difference that CHRISTIANS hold that differ from an other on the saving doctrines taught in the Bible.." You can't do that because there aren't any.. In not knowing that you again show that you haven't any idea what you are talking about.. This post of yours shows that you are still thinking like a mormon.. Here is something you could do, ask Alan if Christian churches teach different doctrine that have to do with a persons salvation.. I think he is pandering the LDS almost as much as you do, but I still believe that at least he is a Christian, a child of God.. I am not seeing that from you.. IHS jim

[Libby]

I am not seeing that from you..

Do you think I really care what you think, at this point?

Your behavior is definitely NOT Christian.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you think I really care what you think, at this point?

Your behavior is definitely NOT Christian.

Love is not the opposite of hate.. The opposite of Love is indifference.. I care about you Libby.. I hate seeing you falling into the lap of the lies of mormonism again.. I hate seeing your fall applauded by Alan.. As long as you post here I will keep trying to show you why what you are doing is so wrong.. That isn't indifference that is sincere care for you and your welfare.. I will say it again in Jesus you are important to me, even though you do make it hard to do, I love you in Christ.. IHS jim