My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Libby]

Again, James, I really don't care what you think.

I am not LDS, nor do I have any plans of ever returning to that church.

You are a blatant teller of untruths and you have no love in you.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Again, James, I really don't care what you think.

I am not LDS, nor do I have any plans of ever returning to that church.

You are a blatant teller of untruths and you have no love in you.

That deserves the same answer.. You actions are screaming so loud that your denials are drowned out.. IHS jim

[Libby]

My posts bare witness to your untruths.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

My posts bare witness to your untruths.

No one knows that because you don't say I am wrong about what I teach but only the way I do so.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Do any Christian churches believe that baptism is a saving ordinance?

...yes.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

...yes.......

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

in some branches of the church....yes!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

In water? Sure after all water can't cleanse you of sin.. That requires the Blood of the Lamb.. Remember:

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism. But, some churches believe this is a necessity. Catholics, for sure, and I think there are certain denominations of Baptists who believe this, as well...and perhaps others.

It was a very strong belief, in the early church, that all Christians must be baptized.

I was reading a book on the early church fathers that mentioned that, because baptism was considered a cleansing of sin, often people would wait to be baptised right before they died, so that they would enter the hereafter completely cleansed. I think Augustine or Constantine (?) was one of those, who believed and did this.

Seems to go against the very idea of Christ being our righteousness, doesn't it?

A link on baptism that I found on the internet.

http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/doctrines/baptism/

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism.

I agree with you that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved and he wasn't baptized. However if you ask most Christians if they were baptized I bet you will find out that they were. Those who are saved do good works because they are saved NOT to become saved.

[Libby]

Yes, I agree with that, and I do think most Christians would be baptized.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I agree with that, and I do think most Christians would be baptized.

after Mormonism, was there a push to get you baptized right away?

[John T]

Originally Posted by Billyray [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in some branches of the church....yes!

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.

[James Banta]

[Libby;156801]My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism. But, some churches believe this is a necessity. Catholics, for sure, and I think there are certain denominations of Baptists who believe this, as well...and perhaps others.

I am a Baptist.. I know of no Christian Baptist church that holds baptism to be a requirement for salvation.. When we (my wife and I) first came out of mormonism we had a problem with baptism after our Pastor first explained that it is a testimony not a requirement for salvation.. That salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. It took some time in pray and the word but we came to understand that truth..

It was a very strong belief, in the early church, that all Christians must be baptized.

Yes it was done to identified each believer to Jesus.. What kind of Christian doesn't want to be identified with their Lord?

I was reading a book on the early church fathers that mentioned that, because baptism was considered a cleansing of sin, often people would wait to be baptised right before they died, so that they would enter the hereafter completely cleansed. I think Augustine or Constantine (?) was one of those, who believed and did this.

Seems to go against the very idea of Christ being our righteousness, doesn't it? But Augustine was baptized in AD 387 and died in AD 430.. that is 43 years as a baptized Christian.. Seems he was more into salvation by his faith in Jesus than in something he could do to earn it.. Constantine on the other hand was a pagan king that saw Christianity as a way to control the m***es.. Out of his fear of death he submitted to baptism on his death bed. I would question his conversion because if his use of the church to control his empire..

A link on baptism that I found on the internet.

http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/doctrines/baptism/

I will not defend the cults in their practices of baptism. Therefire what the Catholics do is not up for discussion.. The Mininite church hold baptism to be a matter of the heart. The believe that their heart are baptized in the blood of Christ.. Not that some don't practice water baptism but those that do do so without believing it holds saving value.. Sees you haven't studied what Christian churches believe in the doctrine of baptism.. No matter who they conduct the ordinance there is no expectation of it cleansing power over sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by John T

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.

I know of NO Christian church that teaches salvation through baptism.. Cults like mormonism such thinking is common but not among Christian. Christians hold that our redemption from sin requires blood not mere water. Baptism is always taught because it is a commandment from our Lord.. But how that commandment is followed is a matter of their conscience.. To some it isn't a physical ordinance by or in water. To others it means emerging their hearts and minds into Jesus.. I find any profession of faith in the true and living Jesus, to be a beautiful event.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

after Mormonism, was there a push to get you baptized right away?

When I first came out, I attended a mega church, in my area, (Eastside Christian). After a couple of months, and attending their new believers cl***es, I decided to join the church. I had to fill out a card and one of the questions was whether or not I had been baptized, and when. They did want to baptize you, if you had never been baptized. I had been baptized at the age of eight in the First Baptist Church I grew up in, back in Illinois. That was acceptable to them, so I was not rebaptized. They were aware of my LDS background, as well. Two of my granddaughters attended that church with me and both were baptized there. One of them still attends that church. They have a very good youth program (she is 18).

I left that church because I was just feeling very lost in such a big church. It was difficult to make the connections I really needed for growth. I looked on line, specifically, for a small Reformed Church, and found one very close to me. It has only 200 members...and I loved it immediately. People were so friendly and it was so much easier to adjust there. I started Bible cl***es and all kinds of other activities, almost immediately. My husband loves it there, as well.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I left that church because I was just feeling very lost in such a big church. l.

we went to a mega church in Seattle....it too got to be too much for us

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.

some christian churches require baptism.....or the good-faith effort to be baptised

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we went to a mega church in Seattle....it too got to be too much for us

Yes, there are both pros and cons to mega churches. Since they are big and bringing in a lot of money, they usually have many outreach programs. I just couldn't seem to find my nitch, there.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

some christian churches require baptism.....or the good-faith effort to be baptised

Most Christian Churches would like to see everyone baptized. But, I think "most" would disagree that it contributes to salvation. Mostly, it is a sign of obedience and statement of faith in Christ. A symbolic burying and raising up again, in Christ.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you think I really care what you think, at this point?

Your behavior is definitely NOT Christian.

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. Jim has never compromised God's Word to suit the Mormons. In fact, he has always been stalwart in the faith, never double-minded, and always ready to defend the Gospel. Can you say the same?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. .....

I believe the term I used was "bully".......

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe the term I used was "bully".......

And your pal there said Jim was acting unchristian. And by the way, I've seen you turning into somewhat of a bully lately here. What gives?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. Jim has never compromised God's Word to suit the Mormons. In fact, he has always been stalwart in the faith, never double-minded, and always ready to defend the Gospel. Can you say the same?

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.

I noticed that too!.....The moment I read the words "never compromised' I thought to myself....."But I thought he was telling these stories about being a Mor....."

????