My daughter came into town yesterday.

[James Banta]

[Libby;154728]Alan, why don't you say that to James? He is the one who ALWAYS makes the conversation personal. Believe me, I am not the kind of person who normally does that, but James really needs to hear how he comes across, especially, if he's going to try and p*** himself off as some kind of "teacher". He is extremely offensive.

It is mormonism and those that pander mormonism that are offensive.. If you know anyone that has pandered that religion, not holding that it is a blind guide of blind followers they need to be corrected.. I teach no one.. I call on the Holy Spirit through His word to do that.. I just point the way for those in error to find the word spoke about the error they are bathing in..

You can check this forum and see that I would much rather address issues and have done so, numerous times. I have started many threads and most all of my posts are on topic. I don't LIKE to get personal with anyone, but James has a very long history of saying rude and condescending things to me as well as to others.. and I won't put up with it anymore. If he wants to play that game, I will play it.

Yes you play it nicely.. You know the worst thin I have said about you Libby? It that I want you to GO AWAY.. You have flipped out in the past thinking that was a command.. It wasn't anything more than a request and it still stands.. You aren't helping here at all.

Notice, he doesn't like it much when he gets some of his own behavior thrown back at him.

Like I told Fig, Vlad, Snow, Richard as examples, BRING IT ON.. I don't call you on any sin other than pandering to the mormon error. But you can start exposing all you can see in me.. Unlike your charge that I have just been making things up I have shown you what you have said.. After I have done so you have had no more to say.. I remained you how your connection to Eastern cults had eroded your faith at least in the word of God, if not in God Himself. So bring on your bitterness toward me.. I will allow God to correct you though His word..

As for my sin I have given it to Jesus and asked for me to forgive me.. He promised and by my faith in Him to keep His promise I claim to be forgiven of my sin and cleansed from all unrighteousness.. IHS jim
IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

if....we might return our attention to things that matter.....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, I would suggest, to you, that it would be wiser to address the person who, not only started it (years ago), but continues it, everytime I come to this forum (which is not often, anymore). Otherwise, it appears that you are playing favorites or trying to protect your "Christian" friends.

I also enjoy talking about religion, Jesus and his teachings and all other things spiritual...especially with people who know how to have a civil discussion and who do not always take it to a personal level.

Instead of gossiping with Alan about other posters why don't you take it to the source of your anger and deal with it with him.. I have a personal connection to my Lord and through His word I know He has a personal connection to me.. If I disagree with you it isn't personal until you get mad for being called on your beliefs and are convicted for holding lies to be truth.. Lies like the LDS are Christian. Lies like being "Good", is the way to heaven. Lies like there are many paths to God.. I could believe it when you said that when you were into your eastern cults.. You should have known even then that Jesus is the way and that no one come to the Father but by Him..

Alan an I are strained quite often.. The thing is he doesn't pander his faith by saying that mormonism is just as true and the Faith that the Church has held from the days of the Apostle Paul.. He has never said that the Gospel was ever lost in all that time. As I remember you have.. If you are back say so.. If you see mormonism as having had more lies in it than polygamy, say so.. If not I would still like you to GO AWAY.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if....we might return our attention to things that matter.....

........it's a big "if"....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

any challenges to this?......

You in the back there, got a question?

Are all sin equal in the sight of God? YES, unequivocally.. Is the punishment the same, YES.. The wages of sin is death.. Since in Adam all Die and in Christ Jesus all men be made alive, the teaching that the wages of sin must be more than mere physical death.. It must be eternal spiritual death.. It is described in the scripture as a Lake of Fire..

If you have some Biblical evidence that explains this differently, I am interested is considering what you have to say.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I understand exactly what you're saying and where you're going with this. You are correct.

James is, for some reason, conflating the two separate points you are making.

We humans do make a distinction between sins. Some are worse than others and our punishments for those sins vary in degrees.

But, God makes no such distinction (according t;o the Bible). All sin, even the least of it, is ****ing to the soul.

The only concern I have with what men think about sin it's levels and appropriate punishments on this forum is what mormonism believe about levels of sin and levels of sin's punishment. What men see in our governments and our communal punishment for sin is outside the subject of this forum.. So I speck to what the Bible teaches about God's view of sin.. So in that Biblical view of sin; all sin is equally soul destroying before a Holy God. It doesn't matter if it is m*** murder or a little while lie about the taste of grandma's cookies.. Nothing about man's judgements of sin is appropriate for a discussion on sin on the forum.. Anything but the Biblical seriousness of sin need to be mentioned here.. If you agree with that then you have improved 1000% in your knowledge as understanding.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

all sins are equal?
the correct answer is....'yes and no"



But you have to make sure you define your context or else you just keep going round and round over nothing...

[James Banta]

[Libby;154769]Found this online - someone who uses scripture to justify your position.

1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying, “He who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11, emphasis mine).

There is a sin unto death.. Could the Sanhedrin have committed such a sin in their desire to me rid of Jesus? What is a "sin unto death", maybe a sin that causes the Holy Spirit to stop striving with your spirit.. Isn't the sin unto death a deliberate, willful, continuous, unrepentant sin?

2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22; Deut. 7:25, Deut. 23:18, Isa. 41:24).

So which is worse; having other Gods before the Lord, being ****sexual. Bringing the hire of a *****, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow. Maybe since all these things are an abomination to God he sees them as equally evil?

3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)

I have conceded that this is the most serious sin anyone can commit. But Unlike mormonism it will be the most common (In fact the ONLY sin to demand an answer at the Great White Throne). All other sin will have been forgiven but to turn from the grace of God to anything including your own good works will bring the guilt of denying the Holy Spirit onto all that stand there to be judged.. So not only is it the most serious it is the only sin that counts..

4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.

These are all very serious before a Holy God but are you telling me that you see making mischief as equal with stealing which for some reason doesn't make it onto the list.. Maybe just because God mentions one sin and not another doesn't dismiss either as not being as much as an abomination as another.. Look at the p***age, murder is listed with mischief and bearing false witness with sowing discord.. That would mean just what I have been saying all along.. Even the sin of mischief is equal before God ad MURDER..

5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).

How we have to judge if this is the eternal punishment of the wicked or is it the pains we all have in life that is being spoken of.. To obey God and live like His return will be this afternoon will cause us greater peace and joy in life.. But to avoid following Him will lead us to despair in this life.. Look at those that end up in prison if you doubt this..

6. Christ often evaluates the sin of the Pharisees as greater than the sins of others. You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel (Matt. 23:24). If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense. (See also Lk. 20:46-47)

Here again they have received a blessing in life and took their reward here.. It will be greater to fall all the way from the hights of their pride to find themselves in the torments of the Lake of Fire..

7. Similarly, Christ also talked about the “weightier things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is “weightier than others.” They are all the same weight.

Great we need to add hypocrisy to a a sin that is included as a weightier thing of the law. That doesn't mean that Jesus excluded all other sin as being just as serious before a Holy God.. Maybe giving of our temporal wealth isn't that important.. I would only say to giving where God directs us is to show what our real treasures are..

Comes from an interesting article on the subject.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blo...id-statements/

While I see your point I see truth in what I have had the Holy Spirit has taught to me on the terrible cost of all sin in all these points.. I have added my comments that are based in the scripture. All sin before a Holy God is soul destroying.. It doesn't matter how serious we see that sin to be, it will bring death on the sinner.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

One time i was in a youth Bible study, way back in about 1975 i think, and we were looking at this section of the Scriptures, and the teacher was going on and on about how the "from Above" wording was pointing to god, and how God had given Pilate the power over Christ.....

But I looked at this argument, and found it seemed to be an answer that did not really fit the context....

The main point we take from this verse is that Jesus talks about the greater sin of this other unnamed person.
Jesus says the the person who "delivered Me to you has the greater sin."...

The cl*** was asked "Who is this person?"
Many in the cl*** pointed to Judas , but my thinking was that Judas did not actually turn Jesus over to the Romans.
the person who did that was Caiaphas the high priest.

Now Caiaphas actually had authority, whereas Jesus points out that Pilate was simply carrying out the rule of Rome at the time.

In other words, Jesus remarks that He knows that Pilate was just a middle-man.

Now when you look at the sentence Jesus makes, you note that Jesus is pointing to something else too..
Lets look at the verse again.
""You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Do you see the "for this reason" part?
I think this is the key to understanding the thing Jesus was pointing to.

What is 'this reason"?>......

What do you think it is?

Yes, this does seem to fit.

"for this reason"....the reason being that the high priests were really the ones who wanted Jesus dead. They had malicious and evil intent, in their actions. Pilate, as you said, was simply caught in the middle, and his intent, really, was a desire to see Jesus released, because he could not find any good reason to hold him.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if....we might return our attention to things that matter.....

Thanks, Alan.

I've put James on ignore. Quite peaceful, that way.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks, Alan.

....

some people scoff at the idea, but I have found it never fails to make the whole world a lot more nicer to be part of.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

some people scoff at the idea, but I have found it never fails to make the whole world a lot more nicer to be part of.

Yes, as I've always said, I much prefer non-contentious discussions, where people actually listen to and behave respectfully towards one another.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, as I've always said, I much prefer non-contentious discussions, where people actually listen to and behave respectfully towards one another.

Really? Then let me continue with this:

You snakes, what make you think you can escape from the judgments of God to find yourselves in the Lake of Fire.. Is that non contentious and Christ like? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, as I've always said, I much prefer non-contentious discussions, where people actually listen to and behave respectfully towards one another.

......

Saint Paul gives us a good example of what you are saying...

I quote :
"Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. "

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

......

Saint Paul gives us a good example of what you are saying...

I quote :
"Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. "

Ah, yes, I love that!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you really believe that you are no longer responsible for your sins, James? That, it is not "you" who sins, but some THING that sins against your will?

If that's true, you are no longer responsible for your sins and have no need of Jesus.

How did you come to the conclusion that Jim doesn't need Jesus based on anything he has said in any of his posts?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How did you come to the conclusion that Jim doesn't need Jesus based on anything he has said in any of his posts?

I never came to that conclusion. I saw that as the erroneous conclusion he was headed towards, while trying to explain certain scripture.

And, I'm not going to discuss it further. I have James on ignore and I don't want to continue a discussion that neither of us really want to have.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

. . .I never came to that conclusion. I saw that as the erroneous conclusion he was headed towards, while trying to explain certain scripture.

Let's break up your statement and look at it a bit more closely.

Originally Posted by Libby

I never came to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by Libby

I saw that as the erroneous conclusion he was headed towards, while trying to explain certain scripture.

Don't you see the problem here Libby?

[Libby]

No, I don't.

You asked:

How did you come to the conclusion that Jim doesn't need Jesus

I answered: "I never came to that conclusion." I didn't ever come to that conclusion because I know that James does need Jesus Christ.

I just felt his explanation made it appear that he didn't.

Hope that was more clear.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I don't.

You asked:



I answered: "I never came to that conclusion." I didn't ever come to that conclusion because I know that James does need Jesus Christ.

I just felt his explanation made it appear that he didn't.

Hope that was more clear.

Thanks for the clarification.

But I think that anyone who looks at Jim's post knows that he has been extraordinarily clear that he needs Christ for salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thanks for the clarification.

But I think that anyone who looks at Jim's post knows that he has been extraordinarily clear that he needs Christ for salvation.

Yes, I agree, James makes that very clear.

I was looking more at the logic of his statements. It had more to do with my problems with Calvinist thinking, than anything personal against James.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I agree, James makes that very clear.

I was looking more at the logic of his statements. It had more to do with my problems with Calvinist thinking, than anything personal against James.

Both the Arminian AND Calvinist position believe that faith in Christ is the basis for salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Both the Arminian AND Calvinist position believe that faith in Christ is the basis for salvation.

Yes, I know that. I just think there are problems with the extreme emphasis on God's sovereignty, in Calvinism. It appears (to me) to make man less responsible for his behavior.

But, I don't think we should get off on a tangent about Calvinism. Been there, done that (you and I) many times.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I know that. I just think there are problems with the extreme emphasis on God's sovereignty, in Calvinism. It appears (to me) to make man less responsible for his behavior.

But, I don't think we should get off on a tangent about Calvinism. Been there, done that (you and I) many times.

I think it is hard for those who were raised mormon (such as myself) or for converts to mormonism for that matter--who are taught that their own works are ultimately what saves them--to understand and to accept that God's is sovereign over His creation. To them it just doesn't make a lot of sense and my opinion is that because they were engrained for so many years that man is sovereign--not God--they just can't seem to wrap their mind around the concept that God is truly sovereign over his creation. However God's sovereignty is taught extensively in the Bible from start to finish.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think it is hard for those who were raised mormon (such as myself) or for converts to mormonism for that matter--who are taught that their own works are ultimately what saves them--to understand and to accept that God's is sovereign over His creation. To them it just doesn't make a lot of sense and my opinion is that because they were engrained for so many years that man is sovereign--not God--they just can't seem to wrap their mind around the concept that God is truly sovereign over his creation. However God's sovereignty is taught extensively in the Bible from start to finish.

I agree man's agency is very important in Mormonism, but isn't it also important in regards to responsibility? Culpability? That's my thinking. If God is completely sovereign, then isn't he also completely responsible?

I do see that God's sovereignty is a main theme throughout the Bible, which is why I embraced Calvinism, at one time.