My daughter came into town yesterday.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, to take Calvinist interpretation of scripture one step further, God doesn't just "know"....He chooses.

God.....is God.

he is what he is....he is God.

we are humans....we have free will.
The free will we have gives us the ability to love and be loved.
The free will we have gives us the ability to do what we want, but it also means we are alone responsible for what we do.

No one believes a stone is guilty of a sin....

No one believes a chair is guilty of a sin.
But people are guilty, and the reason is freedom of choice.
We choose.....

We choose to do good, we choose to do bad...
Sometimes we choose to do really good things...that work out great for us.

other times?.....not so much.


But what about God?


God is God.
God is not like us at all....he is not stumped by our free will.....God is not like us in any way , shape, or form...
God does not think like us, he does not come to our conclusions, he is not limited by the problems that stump us completely.

So.....what does this mean?
It means.......(and here is the important part)......it means that God is able to perform his will completely..while never needing to first take away human free will.




UNDERSTAND THAT?.........me neither.

But thats how it works.

[Libby]

UNDERSTAND THAT?.........me neither.

lol...nope, I do not understand. And, believe me, I've had this conversation with MANY people, including the Pastor of my church.

[Libby]

What I got from my Pastor is that, at some point, we have to stop worrying about what we don't understand and just dwell in faith. I do ask God to help me do that. You'd think it would be easy, but it hasn't been for me.

[alanmolstad]

Libby,,,the beers kicking in, so watch and wonder as the pearls of wisdom flow forth from my hands...

Another way to look at this question?......



Libby, we are human, we experience one moment after another.
so we dont know the future at all.....the page of the future is always hidden....


thats how we look at life....like its a book that we are reading.
The p***ing of time is like the turning of a page of the book.




BUT, thats not how God looks at the creation.


how does God look at creation?



I dont know for sure.


But in a small way, its kinda like how we look at a painting.

a painting has no start, no finish, no half-way point...

a painting is all it is, all at once.




So how does this relate to human free will and God's sovereignty?

Its important to it..

We try to understand God as if he was trapped in the book of time, where one thing follows another and we are not sure how it ends.
But God looks at the beginning and the ending and the middle and all points in between with the same clarity.

So while we struggle with our freewill, God just smiles...


Yes, we have free will and can do whatever we want...but only because in the totally finished painting of creation that God is looking at, we were painted with such by the Master.

[alanmolstad]

Libby, when i die, i want you to include the above post of mine in the book that gets turned into the movie...ok?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

lol...nope, I do not understand......

and that......is......the beginning of wisdom.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

......

Saint Paul gives us a good example of what you are saying...

I quote :
"Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. "

Were not the words of Paul pointed at believers? Were not the words I quoted from aimed at the lost? The context is totally different.. Maybe you see that pandering to the lost and soft peddling their uniquely blasphemous doctrines especially those concerning who and what God is.. That is a subject that doesn't separate us Alan. I have seen that that doctrines does separate Christianity from Libby.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks, Alan.

I've put James on ignore. Quite peaceful, that way.

Strange you stayed here and continued to post because I was so glad that you said you were leaving.. You remained here because I said YEAH to your promise to leave.. You saw my correction of a woman that says she is a Christian a child of God as personal attacks on you.. You are also wrong about that.. It's just strange that you stayed because of my desire to see you leave and then you put me on ignore.. Ironic!!!

I will continue to make those comments as you keep posting error.. I wouldn't want anyone to be confused by any unbiblical comments you may make.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Strange you stayed here and continued to post .......

I thank God for her....


as for what is "strange"?...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby,,,the beers kicking in, so watch and wonder as the pearls of wisdom flow forth from my hands...

Another way to look at this question?......



Libby, we are human, we experience one moment after another.
so we dont know the future at all.....the page of the future is always hidden....


thats how we look at life....like its a book that we are reading.
The p***ing of time is like the turning of a page of the book.




BUT, thats not how God looks at the creation.


how does God look at creation?



I dont know for sure.


But in a small way, its kinda like how we look at a painting.

a painting has no start, no finish, no half-way point...

a painting is all it is, all at once.




So how does this relate to human free will and God's sovereignty?

Its important to it..

We try to understand God as if he was trapped in the book of time, where one thing follows another and we are not sure how it ends.
But God looks at the beginning and the ending and the middle and all points in between with the same clarity.

So while we struggle with our freewill, God just smiles...


Yes, we have free will and can do whatever we want...but only because in the totally finished painting of creation that God is looking at, we were painted with such by the Master.

Seriously good post, Alan...will definitely make a great movie!

I agree that the time/space thing plays into why we humans can't quite grasp all that God fully understands (because He has the bigger picture). I did know that, but I appreciate the reminder. It's too easy to get caught up in "logical" arguments, that are really only logical from our human perspective.

Good points. Thank you, much!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and that......is......the beginning of wisdom.

That is so true. The older I get, the less I seem to "know" for sure. I do think that is a kind of wisdom, to finally realize that, not only do you not know everything, but some things are just not knowable from our puny human perspective (just as you have pointed out).

[Libby]

I thank God for her....

as for what is "strange"?...

Appreciate your words here, as well.

[alanmolstad]

it needs a tune....

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God.....is God.

he is what he is....he is God.

we are humans....we have free will.
The free will we have gives us the ability to love and be loved.
The free will we have gives us the ability to do what we want, but it also means we are alone responsible for what we do.

No one believes a stone is guilty of a sin....

No one believes a chair is guilty of a sin.
But people are guilty, and the reason is freedom of choice.
We choose.....

We choose to do good, we choose to do bad...
Sometimes we choose to do really good things...that work out great for us.

other times?.....not so much.


But what about God?


God is God.
God is not like us at all....he is not stumped by our free will.....God is not like us in any way , shape, or form...
God does not think like us, he does not come to our conclusions, he is not limited by the problems that stump us completely.

So.....what does this mean?
It means.......(and here is the important part)......it means that God is able to perform his will completely..while never needing to first take away human free will.




UNDERSTAND THAT?.........me neither.

But thats how it works.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

it needs a tune....

Try "Turkey and the Straw" It works with just about anything.. IHS jim

[Libby]

God is not like us in any way , shape, or form...

Not to nitpick (because that was a good post), but I did want to add that I think we are like God, in some ways. He even said that he made us in his image. I don't think he meant "physical image", but rather in his spiritual image. We have a spirit like his, and intelligence and the ability to know good from evil. Without that ability, we could not be held accountable.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not to nitpick (because that was a good post), but I did want to add that I think we are like God, in some ways. He even said that he made us in his image. I don't think he meant "physical image", but rather in his spiritual image. We have a spirit like his, and intelligence and the ability to know good from evil. Without that ability, we could not be held accountable.

All of our being is in His image.. He (God) is triune, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. We are triune Mind, Body, and Spirit. In that way we are in His image.. Other than that we share some attributes, like you have inferred. We have the ability to know good from evil. We can love, we can be angry. And like God we can't go against our base nature.. The heart (that is our base nature) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.. Left to ourselves that is what we are.. To be more than that we must be born of God from above.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

there is nothing in this creation that you can point to and say...."Just like God".....


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In my posts I am pointing to the point of view of God compared to the point of view on men.

So its this point of view, or the ways we think that are so different, and that is the aim of my posts that are dealing with Calvinism,,,,as Calvinism is also a way of thinking and a point of view...

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

there is nothing in this creation that you can point to and say...."Just like God".....


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In my posts I am pointing to the point of view of God compared to the point of view on men.

So its this point of view, or the ways we think that are so different, and that is the aim of my posts that are dealing with Calvinism,,,,as Calvinism is also a way of thinking and a point of view...

That is true all we have here is symbolism.. Our triune nature of Body, Mind and Spirit is symbolic of His triune of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He created us with that nature to reflect Himself in us.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not to nitpick (because that was a good post), but I did want to add that I think we are like God, in some ways. He even said that he made us in his image. I don't think he meant "physical image", but rather in his spiritual image. We have a spirit like his, and intelligence and the ability to know good from evil. Without that ability, we could not be held accountable.

We are like God spiritually, but the Fall didn't just mar our likeness, but destroyed it. We are totally dead in our spirit nature until we are regenerated (given new life) by the Holy Spirit through faith in the Blood of Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

there is nothing in this creation that you can point to and say...."Just like God".....


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In my posts I am pointing to the point of view of God compared to the point of view on men.

So its this point of view, or the ways we think that are so different, and that is the aim of my posts that are dealing with Calvinism,,,,as Calvinism is also a way of thinking and a point of view...

Yes. Since none of us can know the entirety of God, then I'm sure we all miss the mark, in some ways.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, to take Calvinist interpretation of scripture one step further, God doesn't just "know"....He chooses.

God elects some but not all. What issue do you have with this exactly?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God elects some but not all. What issue do you have with this exactly?

It's not fair...and I do believe God is "just".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not fair...and I do believe God is "just".

What is the basis for saying that it is not fair?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not fair...and I do believe God is "just".

I tell you what is not fair, me looking more like Mick Jagger, and not like Tom Cruise.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes. Since none of us can know the entirety of God, then I'm sure we all miss the mark, in some ways.

But we MUST accept all God has revealed about Himself in the Bible.. We Must believe primarily that He is One Lord.. We must believe that the Father is Gos. that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.. We must believe that he is Spirit and that Jesus is the tangible image of the invisible God.. But denying what He has told us about Himself is clear evidence that there is no faith in Him at all..

Remember
Heb 11:7
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

To deny what He has told us of Himself in His word is to deny that He is there at all.. IHS jim