My daughter came into town yesterday.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not fair...and I do believe God is "just".

If men had no free will, then you would be correct...it would be so unfair that no one would even bother to worship a god like that....

But free will is never removed by the lord in order for Him to save us....we have it and it is why we are the things we are and not robots.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If men had no free will, then you would be correct...it would be so unfair that no one would even bother to worship a god like that....

But free will is never removed by the lord in order for Him to save us....we have it and it is why we are the things we are and not robots.

I agree with you, Alan, but that is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that the only "free will" we have is the freedom to sin (as Catherine stated, above). That we are so degenerate that we cannot possibly choose God or good. Only God's regenerative/renewing power can make us truly free to choose Him. But, the kicker here (and the part that is disturbing to many, not just me) is that, supposedly, God only chooses and draws "some". Not just people he knows will choose Him, because, remember, that we haven't the will to choose him, until he chooses us. So, it is completely his sovereign wish and desire to only choose "some". Those few will, then, choose Him. That is Calvinism. Total Depravity and Limited or Particular Atonement (Christ only died for those God chose before the beginning of the world)..

[Libby]

So, I am not really saying that God is unfair, because I don't believe he is. God is just and we are free to choose him. I believe he draws all of us, not just "some".

It's really the TULIP system of belief that I reject.

it would be so unfair that no one would even bother to worship a god like that....

You would think, right? But, people do worship a God, exactly like that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God elects some but not all. What issue do you have with this exactly?

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not fair...and I do believe God is "just".

Originally Posted by Libby

So, I am not really saying that God is unfair, because I don't believe he is. God is just and we are free to choose him. I believe he draws all of us, not just "some".

It's really the TULIP system of belief that I reject.

You said that God is not fair (from the Calvinist POV). What is the basis for your ***essment?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe he draws all of us, not just "some".

If I were to make up a religion based on my own ideas I would probably agree with you Libby. The problem is that truth is not based on what you or I think or "feel" (as BigJ says all the time) but rather what God says.

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


Can you tell me what these verses mean to you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If I were to make up a religion based on my own ideas I would probably agree with you Libby. The problem is that truth is not based on what you or I think or "feel" (as BigJ says all the time) but rather what God says.

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


Can you tell me what these verses mean to you?

What does it mean to you? I don't see any limitations in those verses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What does it mean to you? I don't see any limitations in those verses.

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

She (Libby) claims to be a believer while doing so she disbelieves the teaching God gave us in His word. She would rather believe the LIES of mormonism that teaches we are saved by grace but only after all we can do.. ALL WE CAN DO.. But the Bible is clear that only those that the FATHER HAS GIVEN to Jesus we be raised up to life of the last day.. Why can't she just believe? I don't know I have to work with Never Ending for months on a few points of grace.. I praise God that she is now as even a more solid believer than I am.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What is the basis for saying that it is not fair?

If God was only just we'd all be sent directly to hell! So tell us, are you still into the Hinduism thing -you know, the one where everything is a big dream?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with you, Alan, but that is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that the only "free will" we have is the freedom to sin (as Catherine stated, above). That we are so degenerate that we cannot possibly choose God or good. Only God's regenerative/renewing power can make us truly free to choose Him. But, the kicker here (and the part that is disturbing to many, not just me) is that, supposedly, God only chooses and draws "some". Not just people he knows will choose Him, because, remember, that we haven't the will to choose him, until he chooses us. So, it is completely his sovereign wish and desire to only choose "some". Those few will, then, choose Him. That is Calvinism. Total Depravity and Limited or Particular Atonement (Christ only died for those God chose before the beginning of the world)..

Since when is this the Calvinism forum?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

Yes? ...........

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Since when is this the Calvinism forum?

If I'm not mistaken, you have contributed to this discussion, yourself. And Alan and Billy.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes? ...........

So, you answer "yes?" Isn't that slightly evasive? What do you think that verse means?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So, you answer "yes?" Isn't that slightly evasive? What do you think that verse means?

Not at all. Billy didn't say anything about it at all. My "yes" is an agreement and a question as to what he believes about these verses. What is HE getting out of it? I believe it means what it says. What it doesn't say is that God chooses only a few.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes? ...........

So you agree with the Calvinist position on this? Is that what you are saying?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you agree with the Calvinist position on this? Is that what you are saying?

?? No, I believe I said just the opposite.

Why don't you explain to me what those verses mean to you (from your "Calvinist" position)? And, why you believe it's the proper interpretation.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not at all. Billy didn't say anything about it at all. My "yes" is an agreement and a question as to what he believes about these verses. What is HE getting out of it? I believe it means what it says. What it doesn't say is that God chooses only a few.

Isn't it clear that only those drawn by the Father come to Christ? What's the question?

[Libby]

My objection to the Calvinist view (one of them, anyway) was stated in this post.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...l=1#post155108

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Isn't it clear that only those drawn by the Father come to Christ? What's the question?

I see that word "only" popping up a lot with this issue....

I need to do some research on the verses that use that word in connection with this topic...

Where do you guys get it from again?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with you, Alan, but that is not what Calvinism teaches. ..

and is why Calvinism has problems....and why Walter Martin did not believe in all of their teachings...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

?? No, I believe I said just the opposite.

No you didn't say "just the opposite" rather it appeared that you agreed with what I said.

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

You said that you agreed with this statement. If ALL that the Father gives to Christ come to Him then this could not be speaking about every single person but rather a subset of the population because we both know that every single person will not come to Christ.

So can you explain these verses or at least tell me if you agree with what I said OR if you disagree can you give me your reasoning?

[alanmolstad]

so.....you guys teach an idea something like...."God does not call all men"?


is that what Im seeing talked about here?
Because it sure looks to me like that is what you guys are talking about....

I think you need to back-up and make your views a bit more clear so people will not get the wrong idea about what you wanted to say....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and is why Calvinism has problems...

Alan I am interested in hearing what "problems" you are speaking about exactly--perhaps we could look at the scriptures and resolve some of the issues that you are having with this subject.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

..... God only chooses and draws "some". ......

I was not following this topic that close, but I have noticed today that there clearly is an idea that "God does not call all" being promoted by someone...

Where do they get this idea?...I would like to do some research on this idea but Im not sure how to even GOOGLE it?

The word "only" pops up a lot too...and I would like to learn more about where in the Bible that word appears in this context?

[alanmolstad]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination


why Calvinism is Wrong!