My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I was not following this topic that close, but I have noticed today that there clearly is an idea that "God does not call all" being promoted by someone...

Where do they get this idea?..

The Bible. You must have me on ignore still because I gave a section of scripture just a few posts back that discusses this very issue. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


ALL those the Father gives me (Jesus) will come to me

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible. You must have me on ignore still because I gave a section of scripture just a few posts back that discusses this very issue. Here it is again.

Billy, these verses say nothing about God drawing only "some". You are reading that in.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination


why Calvinism is Wrong!

Making good use of that link, already, I see.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Making good use of that link, already, I see.

its bookmarked!

chances are that whenever this topic comes up Im just going to post this link and be done with it........saves time and people can learn the truth as to why Calvinism is wrong if they ever have any doubts about what Im saying.

[alanmolstad]

Libby......
It was interesting listening to Walter teach on why Calvinism is in error and notice how closely Walter was to my own views!... ...

I had never really heard Walter talk this much on the topic on his show and I have yet to find any stuff on Youtube where he deals with this.

It was refreshing to learn my memories of Walter's radio shows were supported with such facts.

[alanmolstad]

still would like to know where people get this word " some" ?

And where is this verse that teaches that God does not call "some" men found?.... i wish to study that...


The reason this is a big deal to me is that I do not remember such a teaching in the Bible at all?
most of the time i can remember a odd verse or two to a topic, but this idea that the Bible makes use of the word "some" when talking about the calling of God is news to me.


I dont have any idea about where this idea came from and where it is found in the Bible?
You got to have a verse right?.....something that teaches clearly that "God does not call some men"


I just dont see where that idea is from, all I see is the use of the word "All" whenever the Bible talks about the calling of men.
Every verse i run into when i google this topic always seems to have the word "all" in it.

I went down the list of verses i was given in my search and it was "all......."
"all....."
"all...."

I sure did not see the word "some"? in any of the verses I was given to look at in my searches...

[alanmolstad]

Libby.....

Im on my computer now so i can say a few more things on this topic:

Libby it was fun to listen to Walter take apart the idea that some into Calvinism have that > "God used his foreknowledge to see who enters heaven, and theses are the people that he called"

I have run into this same type of answer from time to time and i always felt that this answer made God look weak.
Like God is just the same as a kid who cheats on a test by looking up the answers in the back of the book.




also Libby,
There are some who think that the only reason some people end up in Hell is that God did not call them.
They believe that had god called them, they would have went to heaven.

But this is nuts!

It takes the blame for a person going to hell and transfers it totally onto god, rather onto the person themselves.
The whole idea of the bible is that the people that go to Hell have ended up there because "THEY" rejected the calling of god.
You cant just invent a new reason like "God did not call them" and end up dumping the whole rest of the bible and church history in favor of it!




I also like how Walter takes apart the argument that there was "something about us" that made the difference and explains why we were called by God.

This argument is also 'nuts'!

We are sinners!....there is nothing different at all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, these verses say nothing about God drawing only "some". You are reading that in.

I think that has to be the case.
From what i have seen, there is clearly no support for this word 'some' that people are using, and so that tells me that they are just adding it to the text because it supports their views.

Unless they got a verse or two that do make use of the word?.....I would like to see it because in my search on this topic I find plenty of use of the word "all' but so far I cant find any use of the word 'some"

?????



If they dont have any such verse to support their views?...well in that case I think its funny how they can look at a verse that clearly makes use of the word "all" and is clearly teaching something that is clearly supported by the use of the word "all", and flip things around/screw things up , in their heads to actually make the verse say, "some"


its like they read "all" and think, "some".......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, these verses say nothing about God drawing only "some". You are reading that in.

John 6
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


If you feel that I am wrong then tell me what these verses are saying.

In verse 37 do you believe that the Father gives every single person to the Son?

[alanmolstad]

its like......

its like the people that are adding the word "some" to the text where it clearly is not found are like the people that say, "God is not on mars because in Genesis it clearly says that "The spirit of God hovered over the WATERS!, and as there is no water on mars this verse is teaching that god cant be on mars!"


they are guilty of taking a verse out of context and twisting it around to say something it is not saying at all....


They take a verse that clearly making use of the word "all" and changing it so to them it reads..."a few, some, not many"

to them, "all = some"


Why do they do this?.....they feel the need to do this.

They base their need to change the total meaning of a verse because they think that without doing so their own personal logic ends up with their god painted into a corner.


Well....as Walter martin points out in the link I posted......human logic is not able to understand God's way of thinking.



I look at this way they need to change what a verse is teaching so that it agrees with their own personal ideas about what it "should have said', and just shake my head.....





here now is what you have to know on this topic-

Calvinism is dead wrong.

here is what is correct -
Man has free will, and God is sovereign


think this is a logical contradiction?....too bad, get over it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I thank God for her....


as for what is "strange"?...

It is strange that she stayed because of me and then can't deal with me so she put me on ignore.. That is her choice.. It doesn't change the FACT that she panders to the LDS at every opportunity..

I disagree with you a lot Alan but you are honest in your opinions and hold then in the authority of Scripture.. I don't much like it when the authority of a comes from them saying "I believe" and only that statement without or even against scriptural authority.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

and.......as I was saying........Calvinism is wrong.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and.......as I was saying........Calvinism is wrong.

In what way? I just said you always have had scriptural grounds to hold your beliefs. I disagree.. Calvinism can be supported scriptural, All 5 points.. So show me why it is so wrong. Is it because mormonism says so? Is it because Armenians still to agree with it as it core? What are you issues with it? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

In what way? I just said you always have had scriptural grounds to hold your beliefs. I disagree.. Calvinism can be supported scriptural, All 5 points.. So show me why it is so wrong. Is it because mormonism says so? Is it because Armenians still to agree with it as it core? What are you issues with it? IHS jim

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

In what way?.... Is it because Mormonism says so? ......

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination
(start listening at the 6:15 point of the recording to learn where calvin went wrong)


I really don't care what the Mormons support or what they disagree with.
So the Mormons can "say so" to all kinds of things.....but who really cares?

i dont decide questions based on the agreement or the disagreement with any of the many false religions in this world.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

.....Is it because Armenians still to agree with it as it core? ....

Im not sure about this question as I do believe that Armenian teachings are just as wrong as Calvinism....so to answer this question I might say, "perhaps"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

..... What are you issues with it? IHS jim

Mostly the error of Calvinism is the way it works so hard as a teaching to get rid of the concept of "human free will"

People that believe in Calvinism hate the idea of free will....they don't even like to say the words "Free Will"

Calvinists seem to have this need to get rid of the idea of human free will because they are under the impression that God is so weak that if we have "free will" god becomes helpless to save us.

So in order to prop-up their weakened idea of God, they take away the Free Will of men.

So not only do Calvinists have the wrong idea about man, they also have a weak understanding of God


But my thoughts are that unless you believe in human free will you dont understand the Christian faith.
But once you see how this works, you understand how both Calvinism and Armenians were unable to solve the mystery .


To learn how human Free Will works with God's control of His universe, listen at the 21:00 point of this recording where Walter explains how it works - http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination



I think I have written a few times on this forum how this question about man's free will and god's sovereignty came up while i was in Bible school.
Im my study of this question I reviewed all the arguments that people use to support their views.

I had to read the literature that both of the different schools of thought put out for their own supporters to read.
I went over all the Bible verses that people use to support their own little side of the debate.

(and this was back in the day before the internet and search engines)

My conclusion back in Bible School is still the same conclusion I have to this very day.
Im also pleased to learn that Walter Martin also came to the same conclusion that I came to.
That conclusion is that you dont need to automatically agree to all that Calvin taught, just because you believe he was correct on a few issues....

Nor do you automatically need to agree with Calvin just because you disagree with Armenianism on a few issues.

These two teachings, (Calvinism and Armenianism) did not fall from heaven.
Some guys dreamed them up!
They dreamed them up based only on their own flawed human logic!

And there is no need at all to feel you have to pick one side or the other as being the "winner".

Both were wrong!
Both fail to grasp the truth.


The truth is that man has free will......and that God is sovereign.,

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby......
It was interesting listening to Walter teach on why Calvinism is in error and notice how closely Walter was to my own views!... ...

I had never really heard Walter talk this much on the topic on his show and I have yet to find any stuff on Youtube where he deals with this.

It was refreshing to learn my memories of Walter's radio shows were supported with such facts.

I knew both Walter Martin, and Walter Bjorck, who was my Bible teacher. Mr. Bjorck was certainly a five-point Calvinist, and worked fro CRI. I don't recall Dr. Martin ever renouncing Reformed beliefs at all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I knew both Walter Martin, and Walter Bjorck, who was my Bible teacher. Mr. Bjorck was certainly a five-point Calvinist, and worked fro CRI. I don't recall Dr. Martin ever renouncing Reformed beliefs at all.

I used to have a nice little recording of Walter going over the 5-points of calvinism and talking about where they might be correct, or where they were in error.

But the link was taken off the internet, so i will have to keep searching for a new site where the recording is saved.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mostly the error of Calvinism is the way it works so hard as a teaching to get rid of the concept of "human free will"

People that believe in Calvinism hate the idea of free will....they don't even like to say the words "Free Will"

Calvinists seem to have this need to get rid of the idea of human free will because they are under the impression that God is so weak that if we have "free will" god becomes helpless to save us.

So in order to prop-up their weakened idea of God, they take away the Free Will of men.

So not only do Calvinists have the wrong idea about man, they also have a weak understanding of God


But my thoughts are that unless you believe in human free will you dont understand the Christian faith.
But once you see how this works, you understand how both Calvinism and Armenians were unable to solve the mystery .


To learn how human Free Will works with God's control of His universe, listen at the 21:00 point of this recording where Walter explains how it works - http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...HALLELJAHation



I think I have written a few times on this forum how this question about man's free will and god's sovereignty came up while i was in Bible school.
Im my study of this question I reviewed all the arguments that people use to support their views.

I had to read the literature that both of the different schools of thought put out for their own supporters to read.
I went over all the Bible verses that people use to support their own little side of the debate.

(and this was back in the day before the internet and search engines)

My conclusion back in Bible School is still the same conclusion I have to this very day.
Im also pleased to learn that Walter Martin also came to the same conclusion that I came to.
That conclusion is that you dont need to automatically agree to all that Calvin taught, just because you believe he was correct on a few issues....

Nor do you automatically need to agree with Calvin just because you disagree with Armenianism on a few issues.

These two teachings, (Calvinism and Armenianism) did not fall from heaven.
Some guys dreamed them up!
They dreamed them up based only on their own flawed human logic!

And there is no need at all to feel you have to pick one side or the other as being the "winner".

Both were wrong!
Both fail to grasp the truth.


The truth is that man has free will......and that God is sovereign.,

Two problems
1. WM never disagreed with the Bible and the Bible clearly teaches that we are predestined Even in the CJB we see this "those whom he knew in advance, he also determined in advance would be conformed to the pattern of his Son". What does it mean to know what someone will do in advance? Predestine!

2. The other thing is this IS the mormonism channel.. lets get back to that and stop worrying about Calvinism.. Can a person be saved and be a believing Calvinist? YES! Can a person be a believing LDS and be saved, NO WAY! Stop worrying about side issues you and I will never agree on and lets get back to showing Jesus to the lost.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I used to have a nice little recording of Walter going over the 5-points of calvinism and talking about where they might be correct, or where they were in error.

But the link was taken off the internet, so i will have to keep searching for a new site where the recording is saved.

Aren't you a product of Campbellism? They are heretical, believing only baptism by their "elders" is valid, and that that is where you "meet the Blood." That's a hop skip and a jump from Mormonism, and in fact, Campbellism formed the theological root of Mormonism.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Two problems
1. WM never disagreed with the Bible and the Bible clearly teaches that we are predestined Even in the CJB we see this "those whom he knew in advance, he also determined in advance would be conformed to the pattern of his Son". What does it mean to know what someone will do in advance? Predestine!

if you were to listen to the recording, you would not need to ask questions that Walter martin talks about in great detail.......

Do you really think I have ever for one moment said that there is no predestined text?.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Aren't you a product of Campbellism? .......

what does soup got to do with this?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what does soup got to do with this?

You obviously have been influenced by your background. Campbellites have a notorious hatred for Reformed theology. Look at Rigdon - he was a Campbellite minister. Mormonism, which is notroiously anti-Reformed, is a product of that thinking.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You obviously have been influenced by your background.

Yes, mostly by Walter Martin....and that is why I found this website we are both on right now.

I have not really found a place where Martin and i disagree....Now I dont know everything that Walter taught, but on the issues that have come up and I have checked out what he taught I have yet to see much difference in what Walter taught and what I believe..