Halleljah

[James Banta]

HE IS RISEN

And because He lives we shall live also. There is no more important day in all the teaching of the WAY than is resurrection Sunday.. I life a special voice of praise today for the greatness than is The Lord of hosts.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

HE IS RISEN

And because He lives we shall live also. There is no more important day in all the teaching of the WAY than is resurrection Sunday.. I life a special voice of praise today for the greatness than is The Lord of hosts.. IHS jim

Amen, He is Risen Indeed. Interesting that Mormons could hardly care: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/re...posts?page=34;

Joseph Smith is the central figure of Mormonism, and the object of worship among Mormons (even if they won't admit it). Smith is their idol, always has been and always will be!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Amen, He is Risen Indeed. Interesting that Mormons could hardly care: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/re...posts?page=34;

Joseph Smith is the central figure of Mormonism, and the object of worship among Mormons (even if they won't admit it). Smith is their idol, always has been and always will be!

So untrue.

The other day I heard a missionary tell me a story. She said that she met a man who used to be part of one religion and he stopped going. When she asked why, he said he didn't like hearing one religion put down another. He said that he knew this was not of God. So, he left and found another religion that did not do this. (Both were "christian" denominations.) It gladdened my heart to realize that those who are truly trying to follow God can recognize that this contention is not part of God.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So untrue.

The other day I heard a missionary tell me a story. She said that she met a man who used to be part of one religion and he stopped going. When she asked why, he said he didn't like hearing one religion put down another. He said that he knew this was not of God. So, he left and found another religion that did not do this. (Both were "christian" denominations.) It gladdened my heart to realize that those who are truly trying to follow God can recognize that this contention is not part of God.

Then why is it that the man invented Jesus of mormonism testified through Smith (Without the testimony of two or three others) called all Christian churches WRONG, saying that ALL our teachers are corrupt, and teach for doctrine the commandments of men.. Is that not one religion put down another? Sure sounds like it to me.. But wait (I sound like an infomercial)There is more.. Mormonism doesn't just teach these negative remarks of Smith. No they have placed them into their scripture.. And how do we know that these are Smith's words placed in the mouth of his invented Jesus? Because there are other versions of what he said was given to him in that vision, and in the earlier accounts such insults are NOT PRESENT.. Maybe all LDS people should leave mormonism and find a christian church that doesn't SLAM another person's religion. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then why is it that the man invented Jesus of mormonism testified through Smith (Without the testimony of two or three others) called all Christian churches WRONG, saying that ALL our teachers are corrupt, and teach for doctrine the commandments of men.. Is that not one religion put down another? Sure sounds like it to me.. But wait (I sound like an infomercial)There is more.. Mormonism doesn't just teach these negative remarks of Smith. No they have placed them into their scripture.. And how do we know that these are Smith's words placed in the mouth of his invented Jesus? Because there are other versions of what he said was given to him in that vision, and in the earlier accounts such insults are NOT PRESENT.. Maybe all LDS people should leave mormonism and find a christian church that doesn't SLAM another person's religion. IHS jim

This is not unlike Paul who received a testimony, shared it, and others received a witness as well that he spoke truth. There were many witnesses who were also given the testimony of Joseph Smith (myself being only one).

God the Father and Jesus Christ---told Joseph Smith, when he prayed to know what church to join, to not join any of them---because they speak of God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. In other words, while they speak of God--they do not behave in a Christian way.



I know--hard to believe that there are those who profess Jesus Christ, but do not live as they believe and treat others badly.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;155191]This is not unlike Paul who received a testimony, shared it, and others received a witness as well that he spoke truth. There were many witnesses who were also given the testimony of Joseph Smith (myself being only one).

Really there were other men there that confirmed that something happened when Saul saw the Lord and became Paul.. One He saw Jesus not the Father and the Son.. Second Paul was effected by the experience. It effected him both spiritually and physically.. Just what happened to Smith? By Smith ever changing testimony it is clear that his was evolving story.. Paul Story always was the same. He was questioned for his persecution and called to be a messengers of the grace of God though Jesus. That message never changed.. In Smith testimony in his own hand he wasn't even called to build up a church. Read it and then come back and tell be it is the same message that is found in JSH.. It can be found in (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Compiled by Dean Jesse, Deseret Book, 2002, p.17). A transcript can be seen at ( http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...hsmith1832.htm)

God the Father and Jesus Christ---told Joseph Smith, when he prayed to know what church to join, to not join any of them---because they speak of God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. In other words, while they speak of God--they do not behave in a Christian way.

I love your soft peddle.. It actually reads:

JSH:19
...I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

Not because of the way they were acting but because they were WRONG. Not because of their behavior but because what they believed was an abomination.. Not because they didn't honor God in their hearts but because they taught man invented doctrines as His commandments.. If you are to be believed at all stop with the half truths and tell it like it is..

I know--hard to believe that there are those who profess Jesus Christ, but do not live as they believe and treat others badly.

Yes it is sad but it isn't confined to the Christian Church it is just as common among the LDS as it is anywhere.. There are those here that agree with that quote from JSH 19 and believe that people of other churches especially the leadership are corrupt that their creed (Statements of faith) are an abomination in God's sight.. many LDS believe that since they have "God's one and only truth" they are better than other people. And that is supported by LDS teaching that God most valiant spirit children were sent to LDS homes. The less valiant were sent to more worldly homes.. The pride of LDS peoples as a whole is the same kind of people you were talking about that "who profess Jesus Christ, but do not live as they believe and treat others badly". IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Really there were other men there that confirmed that something happened when Saul saw the Lord and became Paul..

And there were other men who received a testimony of Joseph Smith.

One He saw Jesus not the Father and the Son.. Second Paul was effected by the experience. It effected him both spiritually and physically.. Just what happened to Smith?

Well, Stephen had the same experience.


But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

JSH:19
...I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

Perfect, now those who read here can see exactly Joseph Smith's very words.

Not because of the way they were acting but because they were WRONG. Not because of their behavior but because what they believed was an abomination.. Not because they didn't honor God in their hearts but because they taught man invented doctrines as His commandments.. If you are to be believed at all stop with the half truths and tell it like it is..

Yes, what they believed was wrong, which lead to bad behavior. We act on what we believe. This site is an example.

Yes it is sad but it isn't confined to the Christian Church it is just as common among the LDS as it is anywhere.. There are those here that agree with that quote from JSH 19 and believe that people of other churches especially the leadership are corrupt that their creed (Statements of faith) are an abomination in God's sight.. many LDS believe that since they have "God's one and only truth" they are better than other people. And that is supported by LDS teaching that God most valiant spirit children were sent to LDS homes. The less valiant were sent to more worldly homes.. The pride of LDS peoples as a whole is the same kind of people you were talking about that "who profess Jesus Christ, but do not live as they believe and treat others badly". IHS jim

Show me an LDS site that is set up precisely so any random individual can get on and denigrate other religions and we will talk.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE][BigJulie;155220]

And there were other men who received a testimony of Joseph Smith.

Really who was there in the grove with him? Who had some experience while Smith saw God? The only answer is that NO ONE WAS THERE!! Others were expected to gain a testimony from a feeling within them.. No matter what the Bible said, there were expected to believe that Smith saw both the Father and the Son in physical bodies. And the Bible says that "God is Spirit" (John 4:24), that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39), that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD (Colossians 1:15). Did Smith care what the Bible teaches, no.. He went in teaching that the Father has a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22).. And you turn around and tell us all that we believe in the same God? Hey your god was created by a man in man's image, my God created Man in His image.. Since He is invisible it was His triune image, not His physical image..

Well, Stephen had the same experience.

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.. Must I say it again The Father is INVISIBLE.. Stephen saw Jesus positionally on the right hand side of God's GLORY.. There is no way to see the invisible.. If that were possible then the object being seen would be VISIBLE.. READ it instead of allowing men to teach it to you! No one has taught me this p***age.. I saw it for the first time when I became a Child of God,when I was born again.. Seems that a lot of the Bible became clear after that event..

Perfect, now those who read here can see exactly Joseph Smith's very words.

Yes and see the bitterness he held for the Christian Church..

Yes, what they believed was wrong, which lead to bad behavior. We act on what we believe. This site is an example.

What was wrong? Was it the fact that they taught that God is Invisible (Col 1:15)? That we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2:8-9)? Maybe it was that they taught that we must be born again (not baptized but born) (John 3:5-7)? Maybe it was the teaching that God spoke to His people in the past through the prophets but in THESE LAST DAYS He has spoken to us though Jesus (Heb 1:1)? While the gift of prophecy still exists in the Church, God speaks directly to His people (the Church) though Jesus..

Show me an LDS site that is set up precisely so any random individual can get on and denigrate other religions and we will talk.

Show me any Ward sacrament meeting, Stake conference, or general conference where the LDS church is not called the Only True Church.. Show me any of those meeting where the LDS priesthood is not held as superior to the authority of any Christian minister.. In that the LDS church continues the insult that Smith recorded of the Christian Church in JSH 19.. LDS insults on the Christian Church are written in the the unique standard works of the LDS church.. When have you seen the Christian Church having insulted mormonism within our scripture.. If your unique standard works are true than stand up behind them and admit that mormonism attacks the Christian Church right in the BofM (1Nephi 14:10) calling it the church of the devil.. When was that written? How about 1829-1830!

Do your apologetic sites such as FAIR agree and state that opinion? When FAIR was asked "What is the great and abominable church referred to in the Book of Mormon?" they responded "According to the scriptures, the "great and abominable church" and "***** of all the earth" refers to any organization that opposes the true Church of Jesus Christ. "(http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...minable_church).. Is that not a common teaching in your church? It is not said weekly among you that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true Church on the earth? You can now stop with the "we are better than you because we don't insult other churches" nonsense..

Maybe you don't understand this? This says that "WE (Mormons) have the only true church, so everyone else is in the church of the devil" Now tell me that saying that isn't an attack! IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Really who was there in the grove with him? Who had some experience while Smith saw God?

This is the most ridiculous argument. Who was there with Moses? Who was there with Abraham?

No matter what the Bible said, there were expected to believe that Smith saw both the Father and the Son in physical bodies. And the Bible says that "God is Spirit" (John 4:24), that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39), that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD (Colossians 1:15). Did Smith care what the Bible teaches, no.. He went in teaching that the Father has a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22).. And you turn around and tell us all that we believe in the same God? Hey your god was created by a man in man's image, my God created Man in His image.. Since He is invisible it was His triune image, not His physical image..

What??? The Bible teaches us that Christ is the express image of the Father.

But please do explain, what is this "triune image' you speak of?

Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.. Must I say it again The Father is INVISIBLE.. Stephen saw Jesus positionally on the right hand side of God's GLORY.. There is no way to see the invisible.. If that were possible then the object being seen would be VISIBLE.. READ it instead of allowing men to teach it to you! No one has taught me this p***age.. I saw it for the first time when I became a Child of God,when I was born again.. Seems that a lot of the Bible became clear after that event..

Hmm, you turned "right hand of God" to "right hand side of God." The word glory means truth, brightness, fullness. Say what you want, but Stephen saw something more than something invisible.

Yes and see the bitterness he held for the Christian Church..

Actually, no, I see that God was not pleased with what leaders were doing to His church.

Show me any Ward sacrament meeting, Stake conference, or general conference where the LDS church is not called the Only True Church..

You are offended because we believe our church is the ONLY true and lving church---because it is headed by Christ himself?

Show me any of those meeting where the LDS priesthood is not held as superior to the authority of any Christian minister..

This is where you are taking offense?

[RealFakeHair]

BigJulie quote....You are offended because we believe our church is the ONLY true and lving church---because it is headed by Christ himself?
It is clear this is what you believe, and I for one wont try and change your mind. Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind counterfeit christian church.
Yes, your counterfeit christian church is headed by your false mormon christ.
No minds are going to be changed here between you and James, but thanks for having it on record that you believe your false church is the only false christian church, and I agree with you.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

BigJulie quote....You are offended because we believe our church is the ONLY true and lving church---because it is headed by Christ himself?
It is clear this is what you believe, and I for one wont try and change your mind. Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind counterfeit christian church.
Yes, your counterfeit christian church is headed by your false mormon christ.
No minds are going to be changed here between you and James, but thanks for having it on record that you believe your false church is the only false christian church, and I agree with you.

What? I believe it is the only true and living church---meaning that it is lead by Jesus Christ through a living prophet.

I am just surprised that anyone would be offended by this stance---as most people adhere to a church they likewise profess is the truth and others do not have the full truth---otherwise, if they believed that someone else had the full truth--wouldn't they belong to that church? So that this would be offensive to someone is surprising.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What? I believe it is the only true and living church---meaning that it is lead by Jesus Christ through a living prophet.

I am just surprised that anyone would be offended by this stance---as most people adhere to a church they likewise profess is the truth and others do not have the full truth---otherwise, if they believed that someone else had the full truth--wouldn't they belong to that church? So that this would be offensive to someone is surprising.

I am not offended by your stance, it's something you'll have to live with for all eternity. I am offended by the likes of Joseph Smith jr. The record is clear he made up his religion as he went along, and he used his power over men and women to stroke his ego and his libido. This leads me to have a low opinion of anyone who follows such a con-man money digger.
If you were born into the LDSinc. I can some what understand being a mormon other than that it makes no sense at all.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

... most people adhere to a church they likewise profess is the truth and others do not have the full truth---otherwise, if they believed that someone else had the full truth--wouldn't they belong to that church? So that this would be offensive to someone is surprising.

That is a good point. Logically speaking, everyone who belongs to a church probably thinks their church has the most truth, the most correct answers, etc.

As you said, if they thought some other church had more truth or answers that were more correct than their church had, they would go join that other church.

Even atheists probably think this way. They probably think that their belief that God doesn't exist is more correct than any theist's beliefs are, or else they'd stop being atheists and become theists.

So whether a person says it explicitly or not, everyone thinks his or her church is closer to the truth than any other church is. That is how the human mind and common sense tend to work.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is a good point. Logically speaking, everyone who belongs to a church probably thinks their church has the most truth, the most correct answers, etc.

As you said, if they thought some other church had more truth or answers that were more correct than their church had, they would go join that other church.

Even atheists probably think this way. They probably think that their belief that God doesn't exist is more correct than any theist's beliefs are, or else they'd stop being atheists and become theists.

So whether a person says it explicitly or not, everyone thinks his or her church is closer to the truth than any other church is. That is how the human mind and common sense tend to work.

I agree. Yet, it is consistent with human nature that some would take such offense with Joseph Smith. It seems that they are okay as long as someone doesn't profess to have actually had a vision. If seeing a vision can gain this type of uproar and offense, not surprised at all that professing to be the Son of God would be met with crucifixion. It seems human nature to be okay with God as long as He doesn't actually show up in one's life in present time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I agree. Yet, it is consistent with human nature that some would take such offense with Joseph Smith. It seems that they are okay as long as someone doesn't profess to have actually had a vision.

BigJ the major problem with Joseph Smith and the mormonism church is that they teach doctrine that run counter to what is taught in the Bible. For example one that we just talked about is the fact that mormonism is a polytheistic faith compared to Christianity with is monotheistic. I would say that the majority of teachings in mormonism conflict with the Bible/Christianity--at least in some small way.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ the major problem with Joseph Smith and the mormonism church is that they teach doctrine that run counter to what is taught in the Bible. For example one that we just talked about is the fact that mormonism is a polytheistic faith compared to Christianity with is monotheistic. I would say that the majority of teachings in mormonism conflict with the Bible/Christianity--at least in some small way.

Nope, we have already hashed out this discussion so many times--I have shown you why I see the revelations given to Joseph Smith as completely congruent with the Bible. I also have a witness of the Holy Ghost.

Your turn.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;155282] This is the most ridiculous argument. Who was there with Moses? Who was there with Abraham?

The whole household of Jethro was witness to the fact that God was present in the Holy Mountain. Moses showed signs in his appearance that He had had a very unique appearance. Later there were 70 elders of the people that witnessed Moses' meeting with God. Then the voice of God echoed in the hearts and minds of all Israel.. As the three angels walked into the household of Abraham all there saw them. Their words were not concealed from any there. To ascribe Smith's imaginary visitation of two Gods to even Abraham's visitation of angels is just a fools errand. Neither of the real events changed the nature of God from the teachings of the whole Bible one wit. Smith on the other hand denied everything that the Bible has revealed of Him..

What??? The Bible teaches us that Christ is the express image of the Father.

That is what I said and I stand by it.. Your question show your complete i g n o r a n c e of the Bible.. I had given you more credit than you apparently deserved..

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

But please do explain, what is this "triune image' you speak of?

You are putting words in my mouth.. I said that He is the physical image of the Father.. Is the Father not God? Has He ever appeared to any man before Smith said He appeared to him? NO! He is the God referenced in John 1:18.. If no one has seen God but the only the Son has declared Him then Jesus is the only Person of God that has ever been revealed.. So I said nothing about the Trinity in my post.. Only that Jesus is the image of The Father the invisible God. If He is invisible He can't be seen.. Example I am able to be seen.. Yet you have never seen me. Your lack of seeing me doesn't make me invisible.. If I came to your door with the message of life you would see me.. If God would appear to you You would see Jesus and Jesus only..

Hmm, you turned "right hand of God" to "right hand side of God." The word glory means truth, brightness, fullness. Say what you want, but Stephen saw something more than something invisible.

And how could Stephen see that which is invisible? Are you now denying the truth of the truth of the Bible.. Is the Father invisible or do you find Paul to be a liar, and that because you disagree with Him.. My own son often stands at my right hand. He does so as he aids me in my work. I own a home not two miles from Him home in Cincinnati Ohio. I am in the greater Salt Lake City area in Utah.. My son stands at my right hand even there in the control and maintenance of my hoe in Ohio.. He doesn't even need to be in my presence to do so.. Your idea of the meaning of being at someones right hand is way to narrow..

Actually, no, I see that God was not pleased with what leaders were doing to His church.

And yet Saul working to do the will of those leaders and being in agreement with them was still called by God and used by Him. Jesus condemned the acts of Saul and in his faith forgave him and recreated him as Paul.. He like Moses before him showed evidence in his body that he had seen the Lord.

You are offended because we believe our church is the ONLY true and lving church---because it is headed by Christ himself?

I find it strange that a church that believes in more than one God would dare to use the name of Jesus as the name of their church. The Church are the born again believers in Jesus no matter what church they attend. Jesus builds His Church with them as they are being saved (Acts 2:47). It isn't an organization at all it is an organism.. The living breathing Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27)

This is where you are taking offense?

Yes, among other doctrines of the LDS church. Doctrines that demand that there are more than one God. That the Father isn't a invisible Spirit, that God speaks to the Church through a prophet instead of directly through the Son.. Doctrines that allow a prophet to teach false doctrine in His name and then allow other with the same man invented authority to change what had been taught as God's truth before.. I take offense that the error that mormonism teaches should be ascribed to teaching of God.. And yes that includes the superior at***udes of the LDS over their invented priesthood.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nope, we have already hashed out this discussion so many times--I have shown you why I see the revelations given to Joseph Smith as completely congruent with the Bible. I also have a witness of the Holy Ghost.

Your turn.

The revelations given to Joseph Smith don't even agree with the first writing of Joseph Smith.. It is taught in 1 Nephi 3:7 that " I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." And yet because of persecution from the Missouri mobs and evil State militia which God could have controlled until after His command to build a temple in Far West was able to be kept. Oh yes it is clear that such revelations are in total agreement with the Bible, clear as mud:

Ezekiel 24:14
I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to p***, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

The teaching that God commands and revokes (D&C 56:4) again shows that the LDS church falls short of believing the full word of God, and YES, this is another proof that the LDS church is NOT in agreement with God through His word.. IHS jim