10 facts

[alanmolstad]

http://www.waltermartin.com/pdfs/Top..._Mormonism.pdf


Top 10 Amazing Facts of Mormonism
by Jill Martin Rische
1.
Mormons can become
gods
and
goddesses.


2.
Goddesses will spend eternity in
full submission
to their god-husband.


3.
Mormon women will give birth “forever and ever” to spirit-babies.


4.
Mormon men can have multiple wives in heaven—eternal
polygamy
.


5.
Heavenly Father
is an exalted man who lives with his goddess wife,
Heavenly
Mother,
on a planet near the great star Kolob.


6.
American Indians are descendants of the
wicked Lamanites, who were Israelites
that God cursed with dark skin.


7.
God the Father had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus, who is the half brother of
Lucifer.


8.
All Christian churches are an abomination.


9.
Mormons need 4
secret handshakes to get in
to the Celestial heaven.


10.
Joseph Smith revealed that the actual Garden of Eden is in Jackson County,
Missouri.

[James Banta]

I would add some terrible facts. Like

11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..

13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

14. That Jesus is the oldest spirit child of God's children. That He is our heavenly brother more than he is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father..

15. That Jesus is not just our brother but He is also the brother of the Spirit that became Satan..

16. That the Father has a physical Body as tangible as our own.

17. That Jesus has the same nature as all men as He entered mortality..

18. That since Jesus lived a sinless life it is possible for any and all men to do so..

19. We are all born pure without the stain of sin.

20. While grace saves men it is only available to those that have done all they could do to make themselves worthy of it..

I came up with these extended ten without thinking too hard.. I would say I could come up with an additional ten if I gave it any thought at all.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James. . .

BigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

Here is one example of the Jews "refuting" Christ:

John 8

"Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by."


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

Here is one example of the Jews "refuting" Christ:

John 8

"Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by."


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

Did Jesus allow men to teach false doctrines? When they persisted is doing so did He not say that they were of their father the devil (John 8:44)? maybe you don't know or understand the Bible even well enough to know that.. Remember they picked up stones to stone Him nit because they disagreed with Him bit only because He claimed to be YHWH (God).. If I have made false charges against you or your polythistic church show them to me and the world. Everything I have said in reason 11-20 have been or are taught in mormonism.. I have references for every point.. Calling me a liar without proof is a sin, you do understand that do you not? See I have never taught that mormons have three heads nor a set of horns.. I don't even claim that polygamy is a doctrine that is presently lived among the LDS (Salt Lake version). I only teach what is really true about the church.. Show me anything I have said that isn't true.. IHS jim

[Christian]

Big julie posted:

Originally Posted by BillyrayBigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

Or like a true CHRISTIAN who has refuted you time and time again. . .

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

You are NOT Christ and Billyray did not claim to have refuted Christ. HE REFUTED YOU. Your false comparisons demonstrate the desperation in your attempt to dismiss what he has said. Your fantasies about 'false witness. . .against [your] beliefs demonstrate the fact that you cannot face the EVIDENCE AGAINST YOUR FALSE RELIGION so you hide in fantasies instead.

<snip>


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

So far you have not demonstrated a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that YOU have any relationship with the Holy Ghost, OR that you have responded to HIS REBUKE OF YOU. Instead you demonstrate only rebellion against GOD and HIS PEOPLE, us CHRISTIANS.

Your colors are showing. . .

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Your colors are showing. . .

and yet it is you who respond it bolded green.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

and yet it is you who respond it bolded green.

I was politely asked not to use blue because it made it difficult for another poster to see (an eye problem, I guess).

I use bolded green to distinguish it from the parts posted by the previous poster. . .makes it easier to decipher who posted what. . .

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

Or like a true CHRISTIAN who has refuted you time and time again. . .

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

You are NOT Christ and Billyray did not claim to have refuted Christ. HE REFUTED YOU. Your false comparisons demonstrate the desperation in your attempt to dismiss what he has said. Your fantasies about 'false witness. . .against [your] beliefs demonstrate the fact that you cannot face the EVIDENCE AGAINST YOUR FALSE RELIGION so you hide in fantasies instead.

< snip>


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

So far you have not demonstrated a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that YOU have any relationship with the Holy Ghost, OR that you have responded to HIS REBUKE OF YOU. Instead you demonstrate only rebellion against GOD and HIS PEOPLE, us CHRISTIANS.

Your colors are showing. . .

I see you STILL cannot deal with the charges, so you must try to divert us by trying to change the subject.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Christian

I was politely asked not to use blue because it made it difficult for another poster to see (an eye problem, I guess).

I use bolded green to distinguish it from the parts posted by the previous poster. . .makes it easier to decipher who posted what. . .



I see you STILL cannot deal with the charges, so you must try to divert us by trying to change the subject.

She is just green with envy. lol

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by."


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

Jesus, you aint. We CHRISTIANS know the truth by the power of the HOLY GHOST and by GOD'S OWN WORD, the Bible.

Too bad you have only an evil spirit POSING as your 'holy' ghost, but telling you lies according to God's Word, the BIBLE

Sorry Julie, but why should I waste perfectly good stones on YOU? I'll just leave that to GOD.

[Christian]

julie posted:

Originally Posted by Billyray
BigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

It looks like you are the only one laughing at your joke julie. The TRUTH hurts, doesn't it? Billyray's statement is TRUE, of course.

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

Here is one example of the Jews "refuting" Christ:

And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

<snipped> CHRIST you aint. TRUTHFUL you aint. You still have not supported your religious views from the BIBLE. ALL you have offered is wild speculation and joe smith junk (when it serves your purpose).

You ALSO know what it is like when HEATHENS think they know the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost (like the white supremacists and followers of charles manson did), but in reality only know what they believed without any such help.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)

Ok, then just take this post and show me where one thing I said in my 10 LDS beliefs where I am bearing false witness.. JUST ONE.. If you would like I will bring LDS authorities to you that have confirmed each and every point.. If I am lying it is because I trusted the LDS authorities to actually believe what they have taught.. Let me show that by pointing out the first few..

11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

My Authority.. History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 302

Smith taught How God became God...

12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..
`
My Authority:

To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)

13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

My Authority:

By his Almighty power God organized the earth, and all that it contains, from spirit and element, which exist co-eternally with himself. (The Origin of Man," LDS First Presidency, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992, Appendix 4)

That is enough to show that each of these statements were taken from the inaccurate doctrines of Mormonism and not just something some one you call anti made up to make mormonism look bad.. Mormonism is capable of looking bad all by it's self.. If you doubt any of my other statement say which ones and we will examine them.. Until you do so the accuracy I have displayed here is my witness that all my points are true.. The ball is in your court.. I have show that your denials of these doctrines is the false witness not my original charges against the LDS church doctrines.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Ok, then just take this post and show me where one thing I said in my 10 LDS beliefs where I am bearing false witness.. JUST ONE.. If you would like I will bring LDS authorities to you that have confirmed each and every point.. If I am lying it is because I trusted the LDS authorities to actually believe what they have taught.. Let me show that by pointing out the first few..

11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

My Authority.. History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 302

Smith taught How God became God...

12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..
`
My Authority:

To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)

13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

My Authority:

By his Almighty power God organized the earth, and all that it contains, from spirit and element, which exist co-eternally with himself. (The Origin of Man," LDS First Presidency, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992, Appendix 4)

That is enough to show that each of these statements were taken from the inaccurate doctrines of Mormonism and not just something some one you call anti made up to make mormonism look bad.. Mormonism is capable of looking bad all by it's self.. If you doubt any of my other statement say which ones and we will examine them.. Until you do so the accuracy I have displayed here is my witness that all my points are true.. The ball is in your court.. I have show that your denials of these doctrines is the false witness not my original charges against the LDS church doctrines.. IHS jim

James---okay, you used our scriptures to verify the need for baptism. I challenge you to use our scriptures to back every point you have made. See if you can do it. As we have discussed many times, these other articles are not our doctrine just as the Apocrypha is not your doctrine as well. Lets see if you can back your comments with our actual scriptures.

I give you this challenge. If you can't do it.....then you and I will both know that you know, but continue to bear false witness against us regardless.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

James---okay, you used our scriptures to verify the need for baptism. I challenge you to use our scriptures to back every point you have made. See if you can do it. As we have discussed many times, these other articles are not our doctrine just as the Apocrypha is not your doctrine as well. Lets see if you can back your comments with our actual scriptures.

I give you this challenge. If you can't do it.....then you and I will both know that you know, but continue to bear false witness against us regardless.

I verified that the LDS teach/have taught that God was not always God. That all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

I said nothing about baptism, not one word.. When you are ready to admit the truth of these three statements we will go on to the next three of my statements..You don't want to do that you want to twist my word making them into a discussion of baptism.. After all to address these issues would mean you would have to take back your charge that I was lying and using half truths.. After all these statements were taken directly from LDS sources..It is you that is saying I am using half truths in these statements.. So take just these first three and tell me where the half truths are in them or tell everyone that they are the truth as found in LDS sources and we will go on to the next three issues.. It is you that will have to admit these things are/were LDS teachings..

I am willing to support each and every point as I have these first three, but you didn't see anything about these three. As long as you are unwilling to open your eyes and see what these first three are there is no reason to reveal my PROOF for the rest of these false doctrines.. Address them and them we will move on.. I want to hear you say that these are neither lies or half truths.. Will you.. No you will your lie of omission to cling to them.. Make a charge of lying and then walk away without showing that they are lies.. It isn't I that is being dishonest here.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I verified that the LDS teach/have taught that God was not always God. That all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

You've done no such thing.

I said nothing about baptism, not one word..

You said: "To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)" These are your exact words. I mentioned you gave the one scripture regarding that--that is the only scripture you referenced.

When you are ready to admit the truth of these three statements we will go on to the next three of my statements

When you are ready to back your statements by our scripture, we'll talk. Until then, I will know you are just sensationalizing, telling half truths, and taking things out of content.

.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You've done no such thing.



You said: "To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)" These are your exact words. I mentioned you gave the one scripture regarding that--that is the only scripture you referenced.



When you are ready to back your statements by our scripture, we'll talk. Until then, I will know you are just sensationalizing, telling half truths, and taking things out of content.

.

Again I said nothing about baptism.. The word was used in my source.. It wasn't mine.. I said "Then all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.." My proof text for that says that AFTER baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end. Baptism is then a point in time, I said nothing about it being a requirement, which you know it is in mormonism.. It is also a requirement of your god by commandment. One more commandment that MUST be kept to reach Godhood.. You asked for proof of that statement I gave you proof.. Is that the only problem you have with these three points? It is the strongest it was a record of Smith teaching to the church reported in the History of the church. It is one from your own BofM.. You now need more than one reference to prove the veracity of my statements? Ok how abut this one..

D&C 82:10
I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

That makes two do you need more? Clearly it supports the claim that the LDS believe that all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. If that is out of context then teach me what the context of these two references is.. I don't see it leading to a different subject at all It is all about a requirement for obedience.. Both references!!

Do you have any other complaints about these first three statements I have made? IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Again I said nothing about baptism.. The word was used in my source.. It wasn't mine..

And thus we begin to see your spin---if you reference a scripture and post it in your thread, you do not recognize that you actually mentioned it. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of is, is, as one famous spinner once said.


Like I said James, you would rather spin and sensationalize then to really share the truth about what we believe. I rest ***ured that God knows and you know what you are doing and some day you will be held accountable for it.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE][BigJulie;155622]

And thus we begin to see your spin---if you reference a scripture and post it in your thread, you do not recognize that you actually mentioned it. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of is, is, as one famous spinner once said.

Read my post again. see that baptism is incidental to the post.. It could have been the Lord's supper, or walking on water .. Baptism wasn't the point in the post..

Like I said James, you would rather spin and sensationalize then to really share the truth about what we believe. I rest ***ured that God knows and you know what you are doing and some day you will be held accountable for it.

The spin here is yours.. I was addressing exaltation in my post, baptism was in the quote that supported my point.. Seems that the BofM teaches that salvation has little to do with earning salvation. It is only the starting line of a long race.. So you are SPINNING baptism to be the whole point of that proof that exaltation requires obedience to laws and ordinances.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Read my post again. see that baptism is incidental to the post.. It could have been the Lord's supper, or walking on water .. Baptism wasn't the point in the post..

Yes, I agree that scripture you used did not really back your point. But, that was my point...you don't refer to our scripture in your attacks.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155725]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes, I agree that scripture you used did not really back your point. But, that was my point...you don't refer to our scripture in your attacks.

I used 2 Nephi 31:17–21. Isn't that LDS scripture? Have you wisely turned away from it as scripture? Be still my heart!! But you will most likely say that it has nothing to do with the point I was making..

2 Nephi 31:17-21
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

And what was my point? That mormonism teaches that obedience is required to gain Godhood (Exaltation).. Isn't being obedient till the end of our mortality what enduring to the end means? Looks like I have rightly used your scriptures to prove the truth of statement number 12.. I have shown that baptism is only a gate to access the process that leads to Godhood.. That to gain Godhood a person must be obedient.. What I said in the post is 100% true according to LDS doctrine and scripture.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

[B]2 Nephi 31:17-21
For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

You have an issue with God telling us that we must endure to the end?


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

It seems that Christianity teaches that a man must endure to the end to be saved.

So, your point again?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You have an issue with God telling us that we must endure to the end?


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

It seems that Christianity teaches that a man must endure to the end to be saved.

So, your point again?

You are always asking me not not ignore the context but here you are doing just that.. What is the context of the p***age? End Time and the persecution that will be taking place in that day.. Those who won't be deceived, that endure the affliction and murders all around. Those that turn away from the false prophets and cling to love and not hate and do so til the end shall be saved. That is the message of Matthew 24.. It is the prophecy of end times. Will these who say they believe really show faith or will they betray one another, and shall hate one another.That enduring to the end then is enduring in the end in their faith not in obedience.. The context shows a time the Church has not yet seen. A time when faith will be tested far more than it is today.. But no where here does it teach that our obedience is tested, just our LOVE.. Again your lack of understanding the scripture in shocking.. Next time you shout at me that I am using your scripture out of context remember this attempt to make a point by doing just that.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You are always asking me not not ignore the context but here you are doing just that.. What is the context of the p***age? End Time and the persecution that will be taking place in that day.. Those who won't be deceived, that endure the affliction and murders all around. Those that turn away from the false prophets and cling to love and not hate and do so til the end shall be saved. That is the message of Matthew 24.. It is the prophecy of end times. Will these who say they believe really show faith or will they betray one another, and shall hate one another.That enduring to the end then is enduring in the end in their faith not in obedience.. The context shows a time the Church has not yet seen. A time when faith will be tested far more than it is today.. But no where here does it teach that our obedience is tested, just our LOVE.. Again your lack of understanding the scripture in shocking.. Next time you shout at me that I am using your scripture out of context remember this attempt to make a point by doing just that.. IHS jim

Yes, I am feeling your hate. You have made your point. I do not feel any love from you. You have made that clear to me---especially in your willingness to bear false witness against my beliefs because your hate is so strong. (Oh, btw, I never shouted at you--my big red bold was for only a single word so you did not miss it--not a yell. If any of my words were bolded, it was because my post picked up your bold syntax. If you perceive that as yelling, you must perceive yourself as yelling at me.)

Somehow your post did remind me of this scripture though:

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I am feeling your hate. You have made your point. I do not feel any love from you. You have made that clear to me---especially in your willingness to bear false witness against my beliefs because your hate is so strong. (Oh, btw, I never shouted at you--my big red bold was for only a single word so you did not miss it--not a yell. If any of my words were bolded, it was because my post picked up your bold syntax. If you perceive that as yelling, you must perceive yourself as yelling at me.)

Somehow your post did remind me of this scripture though:

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

I don't hate you.. I love you in Christ.. He loved you enough to die for you.. Julie if you could be saved by my efforts I would die for you too. But your love for a lie, and yes I hates lies, will hold your heart tightly in it's grip until it is to late or God breaks it's hold on your heart. If I didn't love you with His love I would allow you to plunge into hell without a word of warning.. I can't do that..

I have never said one false thing about mormonism and you have not been able to show a single statement where I have.. I use you own scripture and statements from your leaders made as they spoke in conference or in official meetings of the church. You deny that I know but your denials don't change the facts. You compare your own records controlled by your own church to the false teachings of a few egnorant men as they wrote books ascribing them to Thomas, Enoch, even Jesus. Word that were not written by Christian leaders, not controlled by the Christian church, and their message never accepted by Her..

Shouting is a way of emphsizing a point you wish to make.. No one like to be yelled at but I agree that sometimes it is the only way to be heard.. I responded that baptism was not used in my additional 10 facts about the beliefs of mormonism.. yes the word was used in a p***age of LDS scripture I used but it wasn't the theme of that scripture. No read it again, Maybe you will see it.. I doubt it, you can't even see racism in saying that a skin of blackness is a part of the judgments of God for sin..

What are those commandments? Do they include a command to Be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48)? Do you keep that commandment? No, then you don't Love Jesus! Hold it maybe if we would only Believe In HIM he would give us Everlasting Life (John 3:16). Maybe we can believe the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul and claim the promise that Jesus became sin for us that we could become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). Looks like we can obey the commandment to keep His commandments by our faith in Him.. Otherwise any attempt to be perfect on our own bring us to self righteousness not God's righteousness.. To fail in being as perfect as God just leads you to be guilty of the whole law before a Holy God (James 2:10)..

If you aren't keeping all of the commandments of Jesus by using His word you condemn me, you are the ones being Pharisaical in judging me for a sin that you yourself won't keep. Of course all that I just said is a lie, right? God doesn't love the world enough to give us Jesus, a single sin isn't enough to make us guilty of the whole of the Law, and we can't be perfect before God in holding faith in Jesus.. Those are all lies right? WRONG!!! Those are God's word. His promises. Without those promises we have no hope at all.. IHS jim