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Thread: 10 facts

  1. #1
    alanmolstad
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    Default 10 facts

    http://www.waltermartin.com/pdfs/Top..._Mormonism.pdf


    Top 10 Amazing Facts of Mormonism
    by Jill Martin Rische
    1.
    Mormons can become
    gods
    and
    goddesses.


    2.
    Goddesses will spend eternity in
    full submission
    to their god-husband.


    3.
    Mormon women will give birth “forever and ever” to spirit-babies.


    4.
    Mormon men can have multiple wives in heaven—eternal
    polygamy
    .


    5.
    Heavenly Father
    is an exalted man who lives with his goddess wife,
    Heavenly
    Mother,
    on a planet near the great star Kolob.


    6.
    American Indians are descendants of the
    wicked Lamanites, who were Israelites
    that God cursed with dark skin.


    7.
    God the Father had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus, who is the half brother of
    Lucifer.


    8.
    All Christian churches are an abomination.


    9.
    Mormons need 4
    secret handshakes to get in
    to the Celestial heaven.


    10.
    Joseph Smith revealed that the actual Garden of Eden is in Jackson County,
    Missouri.

  2. #2
    James Banta
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    I would add some terrible facts. Like

    11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

    12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..

    13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

    14. That Jesus is the oldest spirit child of God's children. That He is our heavenly brother more than he is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father..

    15. That Jesus is not just our brother but He is also the brother of the Spirit that became Satan..

    16. That the Father has a physical Body as tangible as our own.

    17. That Jesus has the same nature as all men as He entered mortality..

    18. That since Jesus lived a sinless life it is possible for any and all men to do so..

    19. We are all born pure without the stain of sin.

    20. While grace saves men it is only available to those that have done all they could do to make themselves worthy of it..

    I came up with these extended ten without thinking too hard.. I would say I could come up with an additional ten if I gave it any thought at all.. IHS jim

  3. #3
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    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  4. #4
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James. . .
    BigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    BigJ that statement is such a joke. You have been shown over and over again how you don't believe what the Bible says and then you have the nerve to say that.
    ....spoken like a true Pharisee.

    (In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

    Here is one example of the Jews "refuting" Christ:

    John 8

    "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


    Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


    Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by."


    And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-27-2014 at 09:00 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  6. #6
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)
    Ok, then just take this post and show me where one thing I said in my 10 LDS beliefs where I am bearing false witness.. JUST ONE.. If you would like I will bring LDS authorities to you that have confirmed each and every point.. If I am lying it is because I trusted the LDS authorities to actually believe what they have taught.. Let me show that by pointing out the first few..

    11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

    My Authority.. History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 302

    Smith taught How God became God...

    12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..
    `
    My Authority:

    To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)

    13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

    My Authority:

    By his Almighty power God organized the earth, and all that it contains, from spirit and element, which exist co-eternally with himself. (The Origin of Man," LDS First Presidency, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992, Appendix 4)

    That is enough to show that each of these statements were taken from the inaccurate doctrines of Mormonism and not just something some one you call anti made up to make mormonism look bad.. Mormonism is capable of looking bad all by it's self.. If you doubt any of my other statement say which ones and we will examine them.. Until you do so the accuracy I have displayed here is my witness that all my points are true.. The ball is in your court.. I have show that your denials of these doctrines is the false witness not my original charges against the LDS church doctrines.. IHS jim

  7. #7
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    ....spoken like a true Pharisee.

    (In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

    Here is one example of the Jews "refuting" Christ:

    John 8

    "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


    Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


    Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by."


    And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.
    Did Jesus allow men to teach false doctrines? When they persisted is doing so did He not say that they were of their father the devil (John 8:44)? maybe you don't know or understand the Bible even well enough to know that.. Remember they picked up stones to stone Him nit because they disagreed with Him bit only because He claimed to be YHWH (God).. If I have made false charges against you or your polythistic church show them to me and the world. Everything I have said in reason 11-20 have been or are taught in mormonism.. I have references for every point.. Calling me a liar without proof is a sin, you do understand that do you not? See I have never taught that mormons have three heads nor a set of horns.. I don't even claim that polygamy is a doctrine that is presently lived among the LDS (Salt Lake version). I only teach what is really true about the church.. Show me anything I have said that isn't true.. IHS jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)
    I think you are probably right.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Ok, then just take this post and show me where one thing I said in my 10 LDS beliefs where I am bearing false witness.. JUST ONE.. If you would like I will bring LDS authorities to you that have confirmed each and every point.. If I am lying it is because I trusted the LDS authorities to actually believe what they have taught.. Let me show that by pointing out the first few..

    11. God was not always God. He became a God through strict obedience to the Laws and ordinances required of His by His god..

    My Authority.. History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 302

    Smith taught How God became God...

    12. The all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments..
    `
    My Authority:

    To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)

    13. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

    My Authority:

    By his Almighty power God organized the earth, and all that it contains, from spirit and element, which exist co-eternally with himself. (The Origin of Man," LDS First Presidency, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992, Appendix 4)

    That is enough to show that each of these statements were taken from the inaccurate doctrines of Mormonism and not just something some one you call anti made up to make mormonism look bad.. Mormonism is capable of looking bad all by it's self.. If you doubt any of my other statement say which ones and we will examine them.. Until you do so the accuracy I have displayed here is my witness that all my points are true.. The ball is in your court.. I have show that your denials of these doctrines is the false witness not my original charges against the LDS church doctrines.. IHS jim

    James---okay, you used our scriptures to verify the need for baptism. I challenge you to use our scriptures to back every point you have made. See if you can do it. As we have discussed many times, these other articles are not our doctrine just as the Apocrypha is not your doctrine as well. Lets see if you can back your comments with our actual scriptures.

    I give you this challenge. If you can't do it.....then you and I will both know that you know, but continue to bear false witness against us regardless.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I think you are probably right.
    I am sure I am. He doesn't care about truth at this point...of that, I am convinced.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  11. #11
    TrueBlue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I am sure I am. He doesn't care about truth at this point...of that, I am convinced.
    So true, should see how James and Billyray are arguing against the unity of the Father and Son just to win an argument here.

    Maybe they are so caught up in the argument they don't realize it, but something tells me they wont stop.

  12. #12
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)




    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I think you are probably right.
    Help me out Phoenix. If you think BigJulie is probable right then take all the 13 points showed by James, and Alan, and deny each one, by one, and explain why they are incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)






    Help me out Phoenix. If you think BigJulie is probable right then take all the 13 points showed by James, and Alan, and deny each one, by one, and explain why they are incorrect.
    James made the claims, the proof behind it lies with him. He has been told many times that these historical documents are just that, historical documents and are not considered our doctrine---as many of them are not full in content, out of context, may be opinions, may be the learning of the day, etc. He then takes these historical documents and extrapolates things that are not true, half truths, and flat out lies about our beliefs.

    I have challenged him to show his claims using our scriptures the doctrines he claims.

    To have to refute someone who, like Walter Martin, grabbed tidbits here and there to sensationalize is ridiculous. One could spend all day doing it. It is why the proof lies with the one who makes the claim. Because we have hundreds of pages of scriptures, he has ample to go through and show our doctrine using it. If he can do it, he surely will.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #14
    John T
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    James made the claims, the proof behind it lies with him. He has been told many times that these historical documents are just that, historical documents and are not considered our doctrine---as many of them are not full in content, out of context, may be opinions, may be the learning of the day, etc. He then takes these historical documents and extrapolates things that are not true, half truths, and flat out lies about our beliefs.

    I have challenged him to show his claims using our scriptures the doctrines he claims.

    To have to refute someone who, like Walter Martin, grabbed tidbits here and there to sensationalize is ridiculous. One could spend all day doing it. It is why the proof lies with the one who makes the claim. Because we have hundreds of pages of scriptures, he has ample to go through and show our doctrine using it. If he can do it, he surely will.
    Your reply creates a logical chasm, as big as the Grand Canyon. Here is why:

    You agree that those doctrines are "historical" so to that extent, you agree with James and Allen, right? Since they are thus historical it is not wrong to logically say that those were once taught by the LDS church.

    So you have prima facie evidence (a legal term) indicating "This is what we believe." But to make your point valid about no longer teachings of the LDS church you use an argument from silence, your ***ertion of that as a fact, without providing any documentary evidence that those things were repudiated, and are no longer a part of the church. If this were not a "cowboy-style debate forum" then quite properly, the burden of proof now shifts to you because they said "This is historical LDS doctrine" and demonstrated the accuracy of their claims.

    I am sure that you got this phrase from elsewhere because it is not the way that you post: "...and are not considered our doctrine---as many of them are not full in content, out of context, may be opinions, may be the learning of the day, etc."

    I sincerely that is not a rhetorical ploy to get out of a ticklish situation, because the same thing can be applied to your present-day belief. Essentially that phrase is as solid as a jello salad, and cannot be nailed to the wall as something solid.

    And if that statement you copied is true, then by definition, this statement of yours is false: He then takes these historical documents and extrapolates things that are not true, half truths, and flat out lies about our beliefs. You cannot have it both days, Julie, since the LDS doctrines are "evolving" as you state, then who is to say that what you call "half truths" will not become (or once were) an accurate reflection of LSD beliefs?

    The other side of that coin is that in order to establish something as a "half truth" you need to provide the whole truth about your doctrines, which you have failed to do so far. So, BJ, you have much to do before you are able to post something like you just posted again.

  15. #15
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    James---okay, you used our scriptures to verify the need for baptism. I challenge you to use our scriptures to back every point you have made. See if you can do it. As we have discussed many times, these other articles are not our doctrine just as the Apocrypha is not your doctrine as well. Lets see if you can back your comments with our actual scriptures.

    I give you this challenge. If you can't do it.....then you and I will both know that you know, but continue to bear false witness against us regardless.
    I verified that the LDS teach/have taught that God was not always God. That all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.

    I said nothing about baptism, not one word.. When you are ready to admit the truth of these three statements we will go on to the next three of my statements..You don't want to do that you want to twist my word making them into a discussion of baptism.. After all to address these issues would mean you would have to take back your charge that I was lying and using half truths.. After all these statements were taken directly from LDS sources..It is you that is saying I am using half truths in these statements.. So take just these first three and tell me where the half truths are in them or tell everyone that they are the truth as found in LDS sources and we will go on to the next three issues.. It is you that will have to admit these things are/were LDS teachings..

    I am willing to support each and every point as I have these first three, but you didn't see anything about these three. As long as you are unwilling to open your eyes and see what these first three are there is no reason to reveal my PROOF for the rest of these false doctrines.. Address them and them we will move on.. I want to hear you say that these are neither lies or half truths.. Will you.. No you will your lie of omission to cling to them.. Make a charge of lying and then walk away without showing that they are lies.. It isn't I that is being dishonest here.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 04-28-2014 at 09:35 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I verified that the LDS teach/have taught that God was not always God. That all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. That God didn't created ANYTHING. He just knew how to take eternally existing elements and use them to organize this world.
    You've done no such thing.

    I said nothing about baptism, not one word..
    You said: "To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)" These are your exact words. I mentioned you gave the one scripture regarding that--that is the only scripture you referenced.

    When you are ready to admit the truth of these three statements we will go on to the next three of my statements
    When you are ready to back your statements by our scripture, we'll talk. Until then, I will know you are just sensationalizing, telling half truths, and taking things out of content.

    .
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  17. #17
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    So true, should see how James and Billyray are arguing against the unity of the Father and Son just to win an argument here.

    Maybe they are so caught up in the argument they don't realize it, but something tells me they wont stop.
    We are arguing AGAINST the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? That is such a sad statement.. They are one Being.. One God.. How is that for unity.. In that unity there are still 3 separate persons. I have said it many times before, The Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit. Yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God.. Was the Father Physically nailed to the cross? NO, Was He still there with the Son? Was the Holy Spirit there? YES, and Yes.

    It is mormonism that divides the Trinity up into three separate Gods. The believers in The One true God would never do that.. Will I stop teaching that One God? NEVER! Will the LDS ever be able to prove the division they hold for God? NO WAY.. The Lord our GOD is one LORD not three, yes they are one in purpose, that are also one in their nature.. One Being, not three.. IHS jim

  18. #18
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    James made the claims, the proof behind it lies with him. He has been told many times that these historical documents are just that, historical documents and are not considered our doctrine---as many of them are not full in content, out of context, may be opinions, may be the learning of the day, etc. He then takes these historical documents and extrapolates things that are not true, half truths, and flat out lies about our beliefs.

    I have challenged him to show his claims using our scriptures the doctrines he claims.

    To have to refute someone who, like Walter Martin, grabbed tidbits here and there to sensationalize is ridiculous. One could spend all day doing it. It is why the proof lies with the one who makes the claim. Because we have hundreds of pages of scriptures, he has ample to go through and show our doctrine using it. If he can do it, he surely will.
    I understand LDSinc. And today's TBMs wanting to wish it all away by stating, (documents and are not considered our doctrine.) However your LDSinc. Doctrine is wrapped up in all these so called historical documents.
    Let's take point one of James. Do you deny LDSic. Teach members of the LDS in good standing can become god's and goddess?

  19. #19
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I think you are probably right.
    Yours thoughts are failing you.. IHS jim

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    We are arguing AGAINST the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
    yes, this is how mixed up you guys are.....you stand against a teaching on one topic and support the same teaching on a different topic.

    Go check out this
    http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...critics/page21

    topic...post number #523

  21. #21
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You've done no such thing.



    You said: "To gain salvation after baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end (2 Ne. 31:17–21)" These are your exact words. I mentioned you gave the one scripture regarding that--that is the only scripture you referenced.



    When you are ready to back your statements by our scripture, we'll talk. Until then, I will know you are just sensationalizing, telling half truths, and taking things out of content.

    .
    Again I said nothing about baptism.. The word was used in my source.. It wasn't mine.. I said "Then all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.." My proof text for that says that AFTER baptism it is necessary to keep the commandments of God and endure to the end. Baptism is then a point in time, I said nothing about it being a requirement, which you know it is in mormonism.. It is also a requirement of your god by commandment. One more commandment that MUST be kept to reach Godhood.. You asked for proof of that statement I gave you proof.. Is that the only problem you have with these three points? It is the strongest it was a record of Smith teaching to the church reported in the History of the church. It is one from your own BofM.. You now need more than one reference to prove the veracity of my statements? Ok how abut this one..

    D&C 82:10
    I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.


    That makes two do you need more? Clearly it supports the claim that the LDS believe that all men may gain Godhood by obedience to our God's commandments.. If that is out of context then teach me what the context of these two references is.. I don't see it leading to a different subject at all It is all about a requirement for obedience.. Both references!!

    Do you have any other complaints about these first three statements I have made? IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 04-28-2014 at 10:47 AM.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Again I said nothing about baptism.. The word was used in my source.. It wasn't mine..
    And thus we begin to see your spin---if you reference a scripture and post it in your thread, you do not recognize that you actually mentioned it. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of is, is, as one famous spinner once said.


    Like I said James, you would rather spin and sensationalize then to really share the truth about what we believe. I rest ***ured that God knows and you know what you are doing and some day you will be held accountable for it.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Your reply creates a logical chasm, as big as the Grand Canyon. Here is why:

    You agree that those doctrines are "historical" so to that extent, you agree with James and Allen, right? Since they are thus historical it is not wrong to logically say that those were once taught by the LDS church.
    No, because the problem with history is that you and I were not there. Just as with the Aprocrypha, the leaders of the church deem what is correct and what is worth deeming as scripture and what isn't. Why? Because history is often fragmented, incomplete, and hard to know complete truth just by the parts of it.

    So you have prima facie evidence (a legal term) indicating "This is what we believe." But to make your point valid about no longer teachings of the LDS church you use an argument from silence, your ***ertion of that as a fact, without providing any documentary evidence that those things were repudiated, and are no longer a part of the church. If this were not a "cowboy-style debate forum" then quite properly, the burden of proof now shifts to you because they said "This is historical LDS doctrine" and demonstrated the accuracy of their claims.
    The documented fact is that it is not part of our scriptures now. The point is, you make a false ***umption in making the point that the teaching was once valid. Until you can do that, you haven't made your case that I need to make my case that it is no longer valid. Unfortunately, there was not the technology as we have today. Often scribes did their best, were unchecked, and we can't see the comments or writings in their full context. So, we do the best we can, but still recognize it as history. Our church does that, but many chrisitians act as if their beliefs are devoid of history.

    I am sure that you got this phrase from elsewhere because it is not the way that you post:
    What? My words are my own.
    "...and are not considered our doctrine---as many of them are not full in content, out of context, may be opinions, may be the learning of the day, etc."
    Nope, every single word here is mine.

    I sincerely that is not a rhetorical ploy to get out of a ticklish situation, because the same thing can be applied to your present-day belief. Essentially that phrase is as solid as a jello salad, and cannot be nailed to the wall as something solid.

    And if that statement you copied is true, then by definition, this statement of yours is false: He then takes these historical documents and extrapolates things that are not true, half truths, and flat out lies about our beliefs. You cannot have it both days, Julie, since the LDS doctrines are "evolving" as you state, then who is to say that what you call "half truths" will not become (or once were) an accurate reflection of LSD beliefs?

    The other side of that coin is that in order to establish something as a "half truth" you need to provide the whole truth about your doctrines, which you have failed to do so far. So, BJ, you have much to do before you are able to post something like you just posted again.
    Actually, it is not a ploy, as I mentioned, you started with a false premise. To ask you to start with a correct premise before making your argument isn't as solid as jello---it is how the legal system works today---as far as I understand it.

    LDS doctrines are not evolving any more than non-denominational doctrines are evolving---the only difference is that we don't pretend like we don't have a history that influences our beliefs. But as far as religious evolution, according to your theory---the whole NT could be said to be a religious evolution of the OT.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #24
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You have been refuted so many times by LDS here, James, that by this point I can't help but think you are completely aware when and how you are bearing false witness. (To the readers, some of these are true, but many are half truths and some purely untrue.)






    Help me out Phoenix. If you think BigJulie is probable right then take all the 13 points showed by James, and Alan, and deny each one, by one, and explain why they are incorrect.
    All I want is either Julie or Pheonix to show me how I am in error in these first three.. Then I can add my references to the next three and get their input on those. They still have never refuted one single statement I have made in these statements nor any other statement I have EVER posted to WM.. If Julie can she needs to show me where I have lied, or used half truth in anything I have said here. If they can't show me where anything I have said is untrue then my words carry no lies or half truths but the truth as the Bible reveals it. It's a simple thing to make a charge of lying it's another matter to prove it.. Since there is no proof Julies charge is without merit.

    In her own words she say that some of what I said is the truth, but many are half truths and some purely untrue. What I am asking her to do is tell me which are which and tell me why.. She made a charge and won't defend her own words.. I say that no one has refuted my words because when I post 90% of the time my position is supported by scripture I quote in my text.. When I say that we are save by God's grace through faith I call on Ephesians 2:8-9, when I teach that the Lord our God is one Lord I turn to Deut 6:4 and Mark 12:29.. yet I am refuted.. NONSENSE IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 04-28-2014 at 11:08 AM.

  25. #25
    RealFakeHair
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    BigJulie, This is the lamest excuse of all time! (No, because the problem with history is that you and I were not there.)

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