10 facts

[Libby]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

How do you know it was their own tangents? Maybe you're the real prophet?

Nope, I'm no prophet.

I know they went off on their own tangents, because some of what they taught (like Brigham's Adam-God theory) is not in the standard works or considered doctrine, today.

[Libby]

Official statement from the First Presidency:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily cons***utes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnew...ormon-doctrine

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Official statement from the First Presidency:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily cons***utes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnew...ormon-doctrine

So would you say that official publications would be considered doctrine?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So would you say that official publications would be considered doctrine?

lol.....I don't know, Billy.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So would you say that official publications would be considered doctrine?

Lets give Libby and her prophet the benefit of the doubt.. If one leader said it one time, even it that was the president of her church, we won't call it doctrine. BUT IF THE PROPHET OF HER CHURCH TEACHES A DOCTRINE FOR YEARS AND YEARS THEN IT IS DOCTRINE.. I think that is fair.. Libby I could set a trap for you and your LDS brothers and sisters to fall into here but lets put our cards on the table.. From April 9, 1852 during the General church Conference, (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50) until 1873 Young earnestly taught that "Adam is our Father and God." (Deseret News, June 18, 1873.) Young taught again and again that Adam is our Father and our God. In that article Young proclaimed that "God revealed" to him that "Adam is our Father and God." .

According to Libby's insistence the Adam-God doctrine is the doctrine of the LDS church since it was 1. Taught as being God's own truth by the leader and prophet of the church not once or twice but he taught that God revealed it to him for 21 YEARS.. Ask any mormon you know if it is and they will all say NO! Ask any of them what is done with a man that believes Young over the false prophets of the LDS church today, those Young would call false teaches of a lie, and you will find out that they would be excommunicated from the church due to believing and teaching apostasy.. Well again Libby shows the uneducated side of herself in believing something that a modern LDS leader would say about their history.. Libby doesn't know that these men would lie to defend their position and their wealth.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Wow, James, you are really becoming blatant with your false witness, now.

None of the above (regarding myself) is true. Not "my" church nor my beliefs.

Very sad performance, James.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Wow, James, you are really becoming blatant with your false witness, now.

None of the above (regarding myself) is true. Not "my" church nor my beliefs.

Very sad performance, James.

Your actions are screaming so loud that I can't hear your denials.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Why do you hate it so much, when I simply tell the truth? I have not said one thing that is not true, about the LDS Church. If you want to criticize the LDS Church (and there is plenty to criticize), at least, start with the truth and know what you are talking about. Otherwise, you just look foolish.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you hate it so much, when I simply tell the truth? I have not said one thing that is not true, about the LDS Church. If you want to criticize the LDS Church (and there is plenty to criticize), at least, start with the truth and know what you are talking about. Otherwise, you just look foolish.

If you look at my posts I always leave the reference from where the information I use can be found.. You do that too RARELY.. But I lie because I use their own teachings against them.. I do that to make them see their error.. Then you come along and call my posts lies. You say I sin agaist the commandments of God in bearing false witness.. You haven't the proof or the witnesses to make the charge stick and that according to the Bible.. You need others to also bring the charge, and you need to Prove that what I have said is a lie.. You can't do it.. But by all means don't stop, your charges make you look so foolish that no one will believe a word you say.. IHS jim

[Libby]

And, for the record, I am no longer LDS. I have been out of the LDS church for five years or more. I have many issues with, both, church doctrine and history. So, anyone claiming that I am still LDS (or pander to their doctrine) is bearing false witness. I started many threads, in the past, outlining my various problems with the church and why I left. That still stands.

I am a Christian and my beliefs are all within mainstream Christian doctrine.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, for the record, I am no longer LDS. I have been out of the LDS church for five years or more. I have many issues with, both, church doctrine and history. So, anyone claiming that I am still LDS (or pander to their doctrine) is bearing false witness. I started many threads, in the past, outlining my various problems with the church and why I left. That still stands.

I am a Christian and my beliefs are all within mainstream Christian doctrine.

This statement doesn't agree with Libby's statements on this channel as she has agreed again and again with the LDS.. her love for those of us that love our Lord seems to have left her.. Our love for her remains as we try to get her to understand that agreeing with the LDS in any of their unique doctrines is pandering to them.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, for the record, I am no longer LDS. I have been out of the LDS church for five years or more. I have many issues with, both, church doctrine and history. So, anyone claiming that I am still LDS (or pander to their doctrine) is bearing false witness. ......

>......and for the record.....er..ok I got nothing to add...

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you hate it so much, when I simply tell the truth? I have not said one thing that is not true, about the LDS Church. If you want to criticize the LDS Church (and there is plenty to criticize), at least, start with the truth and know what you are talking about. Otherwise, you just look foolish.

Isn't the whole reason for this forum to debate about Mormonism? And I'd like to know WHAT James has lied about when it comes to commenting and pointing out the falsehoods of Mormonism. He uses ONLY Mormon sources, unless their standard works are not Mormon sources these days. Libby, I know what is being posted by James, he is my husband and we do share what we're posting here. So, Libby if anyone looks foolish it is YOU! You don't even know what you believe and have been ****n by every wind of doctrine getting involved in weird religions and non-religious organizations. If you were Born Again, and truly had accepted Jesus Christ, you would never have wandered around to other places but would have stayed with a Bible based church and taught what you needed to know to grow in the Lord. Worshipping other gods is a sin you must know that much.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]
Isn't the whole reason for this forum to debate about Mormonism? And I'd like to know WHAT James has lied about when.....]

I think we should just let it go.

With a word from Libby I too will put him on IGNORE and at that point James can go on posting his 'version" of reality all he wants.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]
Isn't the whole reason for this forum to debate about Mormonism?]

...Mormonism is but one topic....
And due to the real lack of posters on this Walter Martin forum, we tend to cut people slack and just try to be content with whatever people wish to talk about.....as long as they show good manners...

[Libby]

I'm going to answer to some of this, NE, but then I would really like an end to personal "****ysis" and attacks. That's all I have really asked of James. He takes it upon himself to, not only judge, but make stuff up about me, personally.

I am NOT LDS, nor do I "pander" to their beliefs. Being friendly and kind is not "pandering". I believe it is a part of displaying the fruits of the spirit. As I told James, I have listed my complaints about LDS doctrine, on this very board, many times. That has not changed.

I attend a Christian Reformed Church with my husband and I go to a Bible study, at that church, every Thursday night. I am very interested in learning more about the Bible, but a "Bible scholar" I am not. Neither are you or James, from what I can see. I have not "attacked" Christians or Christian doctrine. I have, sometimes, questioned it, very vigorously, but then so do MOST Christians, including my Pastor. He has been kind enough to tell me that if you're not questioning, you're not learning. You become dogmatic and judgmental.. and dead in the religion. There is soooooo much to learn from the Bible, we cannot ever possibly be done with that, in our short lifetimes. Better to turn the spotlight on our own weaknesses and deal with that, than constantly pick at others (as James tends to do).

You don't even know what you believe

I know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I have known that for a long time. He knows my heart, my strengths and my weaknesses. He knows I am very much a work in progress....just as you and the rest of us. He still uses me, somehow.

Some days, I think we all have to wonder HOW, considering the state of our hearts and minds...but, he does use the weak things of this world, as it says in His Word.

If you were Born Again, and truly had accepted Jesus Christ, you would never have wandered around to other places but would have stayed with a Bible based church

Oh really? I've seen your testimony and you claim to have known Jesus long before you came out of the LDS Church. You cannot judge people by the relatively small amount of information you see here on this board. As you should know, there is much more to everyone of us, than what you see here.

I don't see a lot of very "Christian" behavior, on this board (nor over at CARM), but I do try to keep in mind that boards only give us a small glimpse of a person.

BUT, since that is true (the small glimpse) we would all be wise to make that glimpse a good one, a kind one, a comp***ionate one, and not tear at one another and p*** judgments that we have no business p***ing. And, especially, not to tell untruths about people, and gossip about them.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

>......and for the record.....er..ok I got nothing to add...

I am really sorry your thread has been turned into a personal vendetta against me, Alan. The above post will be the end of it. If James and NE don't believe me, so be it.

Back to the topic of this thread.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think we should just let it go.

With a word from Libby I too will put him on IGNORE and at that point James can go on posting his 'version" of reality all he wants.....

Alan, hey, put me on ignore too. I find it awfully childish to tell someone that as if it is going to hurt. OUCH!! Anyway, I will accept that this subject be closed and agree with Libby as to doing that. Good night. Oh, and know this, it was YOU a couple of months ago with your rudeness that I decided to leave. Remember, someone who lives in a gl*** house shouldn't throw stones. Enough said!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]Alan, hey, put me on ignore too. .....

Sorry but you have to earn that...

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

and yet it is you who respond it bolded green.

I was politely asked not to use blue because it made it difficult for another poster to see (an eye problem, I guess).

I use bolded green to distinguish it from the parts posted by the previous poster. . .makes it easier to decipher who posted what. . .

....spoken like a true Pharisee.

Or like a true CHRISTIAN who has refuted you time and time again. . .

(In other words, you have refuted me only in your mind, just as the Pharisees believed they refuted Christ by what they believed the Bible said--because they did not see what He did. But James does not stand up for what he believes, but rather bears false witness again and again against another's beliefs, regardless of how many times he has been corrected.)

You are NOT Christ and Billyray did not claim to have refuted Christ. HE REFUTED YOU. Your false comparisons demonstrate the desperation in your attempt to dismiss what he has said. Your fantasies about 'false witness. . .against [your] beliefs demonstrate the fact that you cannot face the EVIDENCE AGAINST YOUR FALSE RELIGION so you hide in fantasies instead.

< snip>


And I must admit, when I stand up for what I know here, it feels like there are many who stand in wait to cast stones. In a very small way, I can understand what it means to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost and be rebuked for it.

So far you have not demonstrated a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that YOU have any relationship with the Holy Ghost, OR that you have responded to HIS REBUKE OF YOU. Instead you demonstrate only rebellion against GOD and HIS PEOPLE, us CHRISTIANS.

Your colors are showing. . .

I see you STILL cannot deal with the charges, so you must try to divert us by trying to change the subject.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm going to answer to some of this, NE, but then I would really like an end to personal "****ysis" and attacks. That's all I have really asked of James. He takes it upon himself to, not only judge, but make stuff up about me, personally.

I am NOT LDS, nor do I "pander" to their beliefs. Being friendly and kind is not "pandering". I believe it is a part of displaying the fruits of the spirit. As I told James, I have listed my complaints about LDS doctrine, on this very board, many times. That has not changed.

I attend a Christian Reformed Church with my husband and I go to a Bible study, at that church, every Thursday night. I am very interested in learning more about the Bible, but a "Bible scholar" I am not. Neither are you or James, from what I can see. I have not "attacked" Christians or Christian doctrine. I have, sometimes, questioned it, very vigorously, but then so do MOST Christians, including my Pastor. He has been kind enough to tell me that if you're not questioning, you're not learning. You become dogmatic and judgmental.. and dead in the religion. There is soooooo much to learn from the Bible, we cannot ever possibly be done with that, in our short lifetimes. Better to turn the spotlight on our own weaknesses and deal with that, than constantly pick at others (as James tends to do).



I know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I have known that for a long time. He knows my heart, my strengths and my weaknesses. He knows I am very much a work in progress....just as you and the rest of us. He still uses me, somehow.

Some days, I think we all have to wonder HOW, considering the state of our hearts and minds...but, he does use the weak things of this world, as it says in His Word.



Oh really? I've seen your testimony and you claim to have known Jesus long before you came out of the LDS Church. You cannot judge people by the relatively small amount of information you see here on this board. As you should know, there is much more to everyone of us, than what you see here.

I don't see a lot of very "Christian" behavior, on this board (nor over at CARM), but I do try to keep in mind that boards only give us a small glimpse of a person.

BUT, since that is true (the small glimpse) we would all be wise to make that glimpse a good one, a kind one, a comp***ionate one, and not tear at one another and p*** judgments that we have no business p***ing. And, especially, not to tell untruths about people, and gossip about them.

Here are a few questions for you Libby
1. Do you believe the Bible to be the word of God. Not parts of it, not even most of it but all of it.. God is revealed to us even in the genealogies. There His name and purposes for Our salvation is lifted up again and again..
2. Have you rejected the gods of mormonism, and their teaching that we existed before the creation of this world, co-eternal with the Father?
3. Do you still hold the doctrine that Jesus is our heavenly brother a spirit creation of the Father as they believe we are?
4. Have you put to rest all the eastern philosophies repenting to Him all the error in which you had entangled yourself, and returned to the one true and living God. the Father Son, and Holy Spirit?

Libby I never saw Jesus turn away from and honest man. Even though He called the Pharisees vipers and children of Satan, when Nicodemus came to Him Jesus taught him the way of life.. I have a hard time with your treatment of mormonism, not mormons. But even that wouldn't mean that you are unsaved and I am sorry I used words that identified you as a cultist. I know you are not LDS.. I am not sorry for taking your acceptance of their unique beliefs as just another Christan teaching.. We aren't here to discuss the different side doctrines of the Church. We are here discuss the deadly primary false teaching of Mormonism.. Issues about who and what God is. How we can access His grace and thereby His salvation. If you could join me in that it would be wonderful.. I see that you find that work distasteful. That is why I ask you to leave.. Mormonism is a religion that is guiding many a fine person, people of my family that I love, people in my neighborhood whom I call friends, directly into the Lake of Fire.. For that I can't love, like, or even tolerate mormonism. I still doubt you can see the different between that level of disdain for mormonism and my love for the people that it has swallowed into it's error.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Christian

I was politely asked not to use blue because it made it difficult for another poster to see (an eye problem, I guess).

I use bolded green to distinguish it from the parts posted by the previous poster. . .makes it easier to decipher who posted what. . .



I see you STILL cannot deal with the charges, so you must try to divert us by trying to change the subject.

She is just green with envy. lol

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm going to answer to some of this, NE, but then I would really like an end to personal "****ysis" and attacks. That's all I have really asked of James. He takes it upon himself to, not only judge, but make stuff up about me, personally.

I am NOT LDS, nor do I "pander" to their beliefs. Being friendly and kind is not "pandering". I believe it is a part of displaying the fruits of the spirit. As I told James, I have listed my complaints about LDS doctrine, on this very board, many times. That has not changed.

I attend a Christian Reformed Church with my husband and I go to a Bible study, at that church, every Thursday night. I am very interested in learning more about the Bible, but a "Bible scholar" I am not. Neither are you or James, from what I can see. I have not "attacked" Christians or Christian doctrine. I have, sometimes, questioned it, very vigorously, but then so do MOST Christians, including my Pastor. He has been kind enough to tell me that if you're not questioning, you're not learning. You become dogmatic and judgmental.. and dead in the religion. There is soooooo much to learn from the Bible, we cannot ever possibly be done with that, in our short lifetimes. Better to turn the spotlight on our own weaknesses and deal with that, than constantly pick at others (as James tends to do).



I know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I have known that for a long time. He knows my heart, my strengths and my weaknesses. He knows I am very much a work in progress....just as you and the rest of us. He still uses me, somehow.

Some days, I think we all have to wonder HOW, considering the state of our hearts and minds...but, he does use the weak things of this world, as it says in His Word.



Oh really? I've seen your testimony and you claim to have knowbybyn Jesus long before you came out of the LDS Church. You cannot judge people by the relatively small amount of information you see here on this board. As you should know, there is much more to everyone of us, than what you see here.

I don't see a lot of very "Christian" behavior, on this board (nor over at CARM), but I do try to keep in mind that boards only give us a small glimpse of a person.

BUT, since that is true (the small glimpse) we would all be wise to make that glimpse a good one, a kind one, a comp***ionate one, and not tear at one another and p*** judgments that we have no business p***ing. And, especially, not to tell untruths about people, and gossip about them.

Libby,
If you felt I have spoken any untruths about you, then I am sorry. I would however disagree that I've gossiped about you; in fact, I have commented on something you've posted only a handful of times. The at***udes of many here are sometimes very disturbing and comments do get out of hand. How difficult it is to try and convey what is in your heart with using this type of communication. Since you and I, Julie and sometimes Apologette are the only women who come here, I would hope we could share in good faith and not take offense.

It is good to be kind and comp***ionate when talking to anyone we meet. What I do know of you is that you've wandered around looking for some place to worship and I find that odd when one has admitted to accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior but went off and got involved in Hinduism and I don't know what else. You see Libby, coming out of Mormonism for me was not easy. I was har***ed daily by my mother for 2 years as she tried her best to make me feel guilty for leaving her church. It finally came to a head one day when she told me that she and my Dad would be writing me out of their will. That was the last straw as I told my Mom that I didn't care about their money and if that is what they wanted to do so be it, we could go our separate ways. So you can see I lost my family, I even lost a life long friend as well. We had neighbors who stopped talking to us and horrible rumors as to why we were Ex'd. Mormons can and are very cruel to those who leave. I even had nightmares for months. For James it was easy. His family didn't care what he did as they were never a close family.

What is important is that James and I found a church and began our journey of learning more about the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. After staying at that church for 5 years we were asked to help with starting up a new Baptist Church, which we did. We were there for just over 5 years too as James was asked to be a Deacon and I was teaching Sunday School and was also the Choir Director. It was an interesting 10 years and we learned so much. We are back at the original church where we started and have done much to be of help there.

I only wish you the best and pray that you've found a church home, a place where you feel comfortable and can learn more about our Savior. We will never know everything there is about God until we are face to face with Him. Have a good day and a special Mother's Day tomorrow. Today it is our son's birthday but since he lives in Ohio, we can't be together. Neither one of our children live here, it can and does get very lonely.

[Libby]

NE, most of what I said was about James, not you. You had asked why I was accusing him of telling untruths about me, so I was responding to that request.

In the last post of his (that I saw) he was calling me LDS and the LDS Church "my" church. That is blatantly untrue. He, also, continually, accuses me of pandering to LDS, just because I respond with kindness...and try to define their beliefs, as honestly as I can. I don't think most critics bother to do that. They get a little piece of information, taken out of context, and **** it up into something it is not. I know what it is like to have that done to my own beliefs, so I am certainly not going to do that to LDS or anyone else. I think "criticism" of ANY religion has to start with the TRUTH.

James has also accused me of teaching "error", which is also untrue...at least, not during my current conversations here.

Yes, I attended a Christian-Hindu Church for a few months (about a year and half ago). This was a church I had attended many years ago, in my 20's. The change was, in part, due to some frustrations I was having with Calvinism....but, in large part, just a matter of curiosity, as to how this church was doing and how I might feel about it, at this point in my life. Although I enjoyed the meditations and even some of the philosophy, I knew, relatively quickly, that this could never, again, be my permanent home. Shortly, thereafter, my husband and I both returned to the Christian Reformed Church, and have been there for over a year, now. I've attended this church for over three years, total. I attended another Christian Church, for a year, the first year I was out of Mormonism. And, also attended Calvary Chapel for a short time.

You're right, that there are not many women here, and I agree we need to stick to together. Although, I disagree with much that is taught in the LDS Church, I have always enjoyed having Julie here. I have been friends with many of the LDS on this board, for years....since before I left the church....and I try very hard not to treat my friends disrespectfully...and I don't like it when others do.

Sorry to hear your children are not close. I'm sure that is difficult. I have all of my children and grands very close by and see them often. I feel very blessed in that. Wishing you a very Happy Mother's Day! God bless!

[Libby]

NE, I am also very sorry to hear about the effect, leaving the church, had on you and your family. I know that is not unusual, as I listened to many horror stories about leaving. It is never easy to leave (it wasn't for me), but doubly difficult, when your whole family are true believing Mormons.