10 facts

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

NE, most of what I said was about James, not you. You had asked why I was accusing him of telling untruths about me, so I was responding to that request.

In the last post of his (that I saw) he was calling me LDS and the LDS Church "my" church. That is blatantly untrue. He, also, continually, accuses me of pandering to LDS, just because I respond with kindness...and try to define their beliefs, as honestly as I can. I don't think most critics bother to do that. They get a little piece of information, taken out of context, and **** it up into something it is not. I know what it is like to have that done to my own beliefs, so I am certainly not going to do that to LDS or anyone else. I think "criticism" of ANY religion has to start with the TRUTH.

James has also accused me of teaching "error", which is also untrue...at least, not during my current conversations here.

Yes, I attended a Christian-Hindu Church for a few months (about a year and half ago). This was a church I had attended many years ago, in my 20's. The change was, in part, due to some frustrations I was having with Calvinism....but, in large part, just a matter of curiosity, as to how this church was doing and how I might feel about it, at this point in my life. Although I enjoyed the meditations and even some of the philosophy, I knew, relatively quickly, that this could never, again, be my permanent home. Shortly, thereafter, my husband and I both returned to the Christian Reformed Church, and have been there for over a year, now.

You're right, that there are not many women here, and I agree we need to stick to together. Although, I disagree with much that is taught in the LDS Church, I have always enjoyed having Julie here. I have been friends with many of the LDS on this board, for years....since before I left the church....and I try very hard not to treat my friends disrespectfully...and I don't like it when others do.

Sorry to hear your children are not close. I'm sure that is difficult. I have all of my children and grands very close by and see them often. I feel very blessed in that. Wishing you a very Happy Mother's Day! God bless!

You said that you try honestly to define their beliefs. have you really done so or have you defended their beliefs.. I have actually seen you defend their three Gods doctrine.. I have seen you defend the concept of a preexistence, that Jesus is our elder brother.. That is not defining mormonism it is pandering to mormonism.. I have held out an olive branch to you now several times, you keep slapping it away. Be an ostrich and hide your hed from what it going on around you. Trouble with that is you might get run over.. IHS jim

[Libby]

You said that you try honestly to define their beliefs. have you really done so or have you defended their beliefs.. I have actually seen you defend their three Gods doctrine.. I have seen you defend the concept of a preexistence, that Jesus is our elder brother..

Quote me, James. This is simply not true, since I do not believe the Trinity is three separate gods, nor do I believe that Jesus is our "brother". I understand how some people might come to that conclusion (even some mainstream Christians hold that belief), BUT it is not *MY* personal belief. You simply misunderstand...almost everything I write.

I have held out an olive branch to you now several times,

You mean, your olive branches full of threats and invitations to leave? Right.

[Libby]

I just looked through this whole thread and I have relatively few posts here, until just recently. My first couple of posts had to do with time/space as it relates to God. The last one was a simple comment on blood atonement (that it was not church doctrine, which it is not).

No mention of God as three separate gods nor any mention, whatsoever, of Jesus as our "brother".

You simply make stuff up, James.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I just looked through this whole thread and I have relatively few posts here, until just recently. My first couple of posts had to do with time/space as it relates to God. The last one was a simple comment on blood atonement (that it was not church doctrine, which it is not).

No mention of God as three separate gods nor any mention, whatsoever, of Jesus as our "brother".

You simply make stuff up, James.

I am getting pretty sick of being called a liar.. I have made nothing up. Even you have confessed that the doctrine of Blood atonement was taught by the leaders of the Church.. You have been shown that Young said that anything he taught and had a chance to check it, it is as good as any doctrine of the church.. It was Young that taught these things and he taught them for YEARS ON YEARS. That makes these teachings doctrine until their God changes His mind AGAIN!.. I have never heard that the doctrine of Blood Atonement has ever been changed, have you? You are accusing me of Bearing False Witness, which by the Law it's self is not allowed with just one person's testimony.. I know you won't apologize but you can stop calling me a liar RIGHT NOW!

Of course you won't admit that I said I was sorry for calling you a mormon. That doesn't matter to you.. I don't expect anything from you other than to stop saying things about me. Things that point to me breaking the Ten Commandments.. I demand it.. But if you won't I will see you as an unbeliever.. That is scriptural (Matthew 18:17).. I except that I won't see this again from you.. If not I will start calling you on it in it's own thread.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Taken to private message.

Apologies, on my part, for taking this thread even further off topic.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I will, when you stop telling untruths about me.

I did not see your apology, that I recall. I've had you on ignore for a lot of the time I have been here, plus I tend to scroll most of your posts, unless I notice you are speaking about me, again.

I accept your apology, when you apologize for every single untruth you have told about me, James. Admit that I have not been speaking against Christians, that I have not been pandering to LDS doctrine, that I have never said that I believed the Trinity was three separate gods! And, I have never said I believed Jesus was our brother! Those are the ones I can remember, at the moment...I'm sure there were more!

I am not saying that you are unsaved because you side so often with the LDS.. But because you see me calling that alliance with them as pandering you call me a liar? Then keep calling me a liar.. Pandering means: to give gratification (to weaknesses or desires). That is just what you have done for the LDS when you agreed with them how wrong it is to point out the changeable doctrines of Mormonism like the Adam-God doctrine, the finite nature of God, or their belief in three Gods.. That is what I call pandering.. You believe that doing that is right I don't, and that will not change on my side.. I don't know what you will do.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am not saying that you are unsaved because you side so often with the LDS.. But because you see me calling that alliance with them as pandering you call me a liar? Then keep calling me a liar.. Pandering means: to give gratification (to weaknesses or desires). That is just what you have done for the LDS when you agreed with them how wrong it is to point out the changeable doctrines of Mormonism like the Adam-God doctrine, the finite nature of God, or their belief in three Gods.. That is what I call pandering.. You believe that doing that is right I don't, and that will not change on my side.. I don't know what you will do.. IHS jim

You haven't mentioned the many others things you have said and I asked you not to continue this here, please. It's personal and it's very disruptive.

And, if you do, in whatever vain, have the decency to quote me, before you make accusations, and then we will talk about it.

[Libby]

I am not saying that you are unsaved because you side so often with the LDS..

Quotes, James...where?

That is just what you have done for the LDS when you agreed with them how wrong it is to point out the changeable doctrines of Mormonism like the Adam-God doctrine, the finite nature of God, or their belief in three Gods.. That is what I call pandering.. You believe that doing that is right I don't, and that will not change on my side.

Where, James? Quote me.

I haven't done this, which is why I call you on it. Provide quotes where you find me saying anything like that or else you are just ****ing in the wind.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Quotes, James...where?

Where, James? Quote me.

I haven't done this, which is why I call you on it. Provide quotes where you find me saying anything like that or else you are just ****ing in the wind.

Looks like we are back on the main channel.. Ok..

This exchange between you and Alan is what I am talking about in saying you side with mormonism.. Alan said "well...there are many Bible verses to support my views....as you likely guessed as i only believe what i can prove with the scriptures......"

You respond..
The thing is, it also supports the views of those who believe all sins are equal and will result in equal punishment (which is spiritual death). My intellect understands what you're saying and I do believe a "Just" God would have different consequences according to the severity of the sin. But, I can also see why people come away with the idea that all sin is equal and will have equal consequences (without Christ).

This is a very good example of what I was talking about, in regards to varying interpretations and beliefs that Christians can come away with, from reading the Bible. Everything is not perfectly clear, as some claim. It's only "perfectly clear", if you pick and choose certain verses to focus on. From the whole, there are many contradictions and things that are difficult to understand."


Libby mormonism believes in this doctrine so much that Smith created a graded heaven that separates people based on their level of sin, faith, and works. I see that you at lease reject the idea that there is greater eternal punishment for sin, And yes in mortality there are many that will be given few stripes and others will receive many, but God's eternal punishment is the Lake of Fire.. Anyone found in sin no matter how serious or not so serious we might see that sin is cast INTO that Lake. No one is allowed to just sit on it's banks and dangle their legs in the flames.. Sin any sin is so serious that God has told us that "the soul that sins, that soul shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4).

IHS jim

[Libby]

I have just a minute or two, before my kids and grands get here, so very quickly.

I see that you at lease reject the idea that there is greater eternal punishment for sin,

Exactly, and yes I do reject it. So, how is this proving that I "pander to Mormonism", James? I don't think I even had Mormonism in mind, when I posted that. Yet, from "this", you somehow make those accusations?

This is exactly what I'm talking about, when I say you make false accusations.

(Happy Mother's Day to your wife and all the Mothers out there! Have a great day!)

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I have just a minute or two, before my kids and grands get here, so very quickly.



Exactly, and yes I do reject it. So, how is this proving that I "pander to Mormonism", James? I don't think I even had Mormonism in mind, when I posted that. Yet, from "this", you somehow make those accusations?

This is exactly what I'm talking about, when I say you make false accusations.

(Happy Mother's Day to your wife and all the Mothers out there! Have a great day!)

Read my full post it explains it.. IHS jim

BTW IHS Means In His Service..

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Read my full post it explains it.. IHS jim

I read your post in full. You are explaining YOUR opinion on "sin", which is actually exactly the SAME as mine!

What you failed to explain is where you find me "pandering to Mormon belief"!! Which was your accusation! Which was "false"...even by your own admission of what I said MY belief was!!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Quote me, James. This is simply not true, since I do not believe the Trinity is three separate gods, nor do I believe that Jesus is our "brother". I understand how some people might come to that conclusion (even some mainstream Christians hold that belief), BUT it is not *MY* personal belief. You simply misunderstand...almost everything I write.



You mean, your olive branches full of threats and invitations to leave? Right.

I've seen you deny Christian beliefs, as well, in order to compromise with Mormonism. And how about Yogananda's teaching that you are god, and I'm god, everybody's god?

[Libby]

Yep, I have been there, that's for sure, but not in almost two years. I've had many questions, no doubt about it, but I have NOT been (so called) "pandering to Mormons" on this thread, as James has accused. I haven't ever really done that. I am friends with most Mormons on these boards, but my friendships and my kindness towards them have nothing to do with my beliefs about "Mormonism".

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yep, I have been there, that's for sure, but not in almost two years. I've had many questions, no doubt about it, but I have NOT been (so called) "pandering to Mormons" on this thread, as James has accused. I haven't ever really done that. I am friends with most Mormons on these boards, but my friendships and my kindness towards them have nothing to do with my beliefs about "Mormonism".

You do seem a bit dense.. That is an observation. To deny that the scripture is fully the word of God, To believer that any of the Bible has been changed from it's original meaning isn't pandering to the LDS.. Is where that observation comes from. That is their main objection to the Bible and you have aided and comforted them in that terrible error.. I don't care if you see that as pandering or not, that is the meaning of the word in this context.. I was, no, I am NOT LYING when I use it.. You disagree and call me a liar as I do so. I disagree and tell you even in doing that, when I speak only the truth of God's word your attack on me is also pandering.. That's right the mormons believe I am a liar.. You agree with them and post it on the main channel emboldening them. Thus you are aiding, that is pandering..

There you go two reasons that PROVE that you pander to the LDS.. You say you are just discussing with them in friendship.. No you are agreeing with them in their sin.. You have come here from a philosophy that taught that all of us are part of the GOD that is in all things. That is saying that God is also sin. That is more than mere pandering that in Blasphemy. You were in Idolatry and have never brought that sin out to those that were hurt by it. When you announces it as you left here, I was hurt that you being taught the truth would so quickly be caught up is the worship of false Gods.. You could have come back and said that you were sorry and you knew that what you did was wrong.. That it was serious sin. Did you? NO, you just went on like you had the right to jump back into the Christian world without any questions.. You have now gotten what you deserve.. Your "Holier than thou" at***ude is a joke.. You are still in your sin, you unconfused sin of having other Gods, before YHWH is still on you.. You are guilty of allowing nonbelievers to be built up in their arrogant rebellion against the truth..

I have changed my Mind this broad is for Christian who will defend the faith to take it's truth to nonbelievers.. If you won't repent and turn whole heatedly to Jesus and reject the teaching of any and all cultist you should leave.. IHS jim

[Libby]

I knew you couldn't stay away for long.

That's okay. Do your thing, but you are still telling untruths about me. That much is obvious to anyone who reads here (and is not "pandering" to you).

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yep, I have been there, that's for sure, but not in almost two years. I've had many questions, no doubt about it, but I have NOT been (so called) "pandering to Mormons" on this thread, as James has accused. I haven't ever really done that. I am friends with most Mormons on these boards, but my friendships and my kindness towards them have nothing to do with my beliefs about "Mormonism".

You denial of Jesus is pandering to the LDS.. They are at least honest in their denial.. They come right out and teach that Jesus is the creation of yet another created god.. You sneak off, accept the teaching of other Gods, and then come back here and try to tell Christians that they are in sin.. What is that in your eye a splinter of wood or a plank? have I lied in my life.. YES!! and I have confessed it publicly here among believers and nonbelievers.. I still have many of the nonbelievers judging me for a sin that I have brought to God.. have you really done this or didn't you think it was wrong to deny His word, deny that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN, That there is one God and not millions of them as your Eastern cults teach. And I almost let yiou get away with it.. Get behind me Satan! get stright with God then come back and tell us that you are sorry for the pain you cause us here on WM then we can deal with you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

You haven't mentioned the many others things you have said and I asked you not to continue this here, please. It's personal and it's very disruptive.

And, if you do, in whatever vain, have the decency to quote me, before you make accusations, and then we will talk about it.

Get used to it, your idolatry is blatant.. Until you deal with it I will not welcome you here.. I was also taken back by Alan's concealed statement that lead us to wonder if he puts the act of water baptism over the blood shed Jesus on the cross.. Does he really believe that there is something we can do that makes us acceptable to God? That is as big of a question as I have now about your level of repentance for putting other God above YHWH.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Taken to private message.

Apologies, on my part, for taking this thread even further off topic.

You brought it back and here it will stay.. I am not the one living in unconfused sin. That is you.. When you get it taken care of them come back and accuse me.. I stand ready to forgive you of the damages you have caused since you went off worshiping false gods.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

I knew you couldn't stay away for long.

That's okay. Do your thing, but you are still telling untruths about me. That much is obvious to anyone who reads here (and is not "pandering" to you).

If heaven is made up of the James' of the world and hell is made up of those whom James labels as sinners, I would choose to be with you. (and I think God would too ....or in other words, heaven would be hell and hell would be heaven...) Thanks for being honest in the dialogue Libby.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If heaven is made up of the James' of the world and hell is made up of those whom James labels as sinners, I would choose to be with you. (and I think God would too ....or in other words, heaven would be hell and hell would be heaven...) Thanks for being honest in the dialogue Libby.

Pandering isn't it to have a cultist like Julie on your side Libby? You are in total denial that your trip into idolatry is still hanging over you.. You can judge your position by who your friends are looks like you are much close to the LDS than you are to Jesus.. You think you are right in calling me a liar.. I am convinced that I am right calling you an Idolator.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by John T

Quite a piece of garbage!

You still HAVE NOT LOOKED UP the Council of Trent. why should I do that for you?

BTW church history IS OBJECTIVE, especially if three (or more) independent sources state that X, Y and Z happened at Trent.

Your statement above indicates that you prefer to bloviate lies instead of dealing with the truth. That is quite the testimony. Therefore in my opinion, it is not wrong to call you a habitual liar, who prefers to remain in darkness than to see the truth and light.

I have looked up the council of Trent. I am asking if you agree of disagree with it. If you are Catholic, it would make sense of your outrage that no books were removed. If you are not, how do you see the council as this was (according to history)...

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully ***embled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed.

...

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, ***, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to ***us, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

So, I will ask again. Do you agree with the Council of Trent..why or why not?

And as far as objective history with three reliable witnesses---I wonder how native Americans would feel about our "reliable" "objective" history--oh, that I have watched change over time--at least in the perspective in which it is viewed.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have looked up the council of Trent. I am asking if you agree of disagree with it. If you are Catholic, it would make sense of your outrage that no books were removed. If you are not, how do you see the council as this was (according to history)...

So, I will ask again. Do you agree with the Council of Trent..why or why not?

And as far as objective history with three reliable witnesses---I wonder how native Americans would feel about our "reliable" "objective" history--oh, that I have watched change over time--at least in the perspective in which it is viewed.

Since the Council of Trent was NOT one of the Ecumenical Councils, why would you ask a Christian if he believed in it? You don't know your church history at all.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have looked up the council of Trent. I am asking if you agree of disagree with it. If you are Catholic, it would make sense of your outrage that no books were removed. If you are not, how do you see the council as this was (according to history)...

So, I will ask again. Do you agree with the Council of Trent..why or why not?

And as far as objective history with three reliable witnesses---I wonder how native Americans would feel about our "reliable" "objective" history--oh, that I have watched change over time--at least in the perspective in which it is viewed.

Speaking of Native Americans, do you believe their skin is darker due to sin? Are they filthy or loathsome?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Since the Council of Trent was NOT one of the Ecumenical Councils, why would you ask a Christian if he believed in it? You don't know your church history at all.

Oh, are Catholics considered non-Christian?