10 facts

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Catholic church may teach false tenets but the person may reject those tenets. You keep thinking organization but as I said before an organization doesn't save you. You have been brain washed into thinking this way.

Oh, I don't think a "church" saves you. But I find it interesting that you believe a person can attend a Catholic church and still be saved as long as they reject the tenants of the Catholic church. So to you what the Catholic church teaches is not Christian...just as you believe what the LDS church teaches is not Christian, right?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do you continually believe that an organization saves you? It doesn't. The main problem is that if you go to an organization such as the mormon church you will be much less likely to be saved because you are taught false doctrine but it is possible to find the Biblical Jesus while mormon. I was mormon when I found the true God and many other ex lds have the same experience--but most leave and find a Bible based church. However there may be some who stay due to family reason etc. but don't hold to the lds teachings.

You are putting me into a paradigm of what you think but doesn't fit. So, to you a Catholic persons is "less likely" to be saved because of what they are taught? Can I make that ***umption? So, to you, the Catholic church teaches false doctrine and therefore is not a Christian church. Would that be a fair ***essment?

So, to you the "council of Trent" (as part of the church doctrine) is false doctrine....or at least, their choice of scripture was wrong. Is that what you believe?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, to you, someone can believe in "false beliefs" and be saved---or are they really Catholic if they "reject many of their tenants"? Can someone be Catholic and reject the teachings of their church?

I don't think any Mormon would ***ert that they are saved by their church, but rather by believing what Christ taught, which is embodied in His church--which is why Mormons church is called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

So, I find it fascinating that you believe you can belong to a church and either reject its tenants or not reject its tenants and be saved. Seems pretty wishy-washy to me.

Can a person truly be a Mormon if they DON"T believe every teaching of Mormonism? Please don't try and fool me or anyone who knows about what Mormonism teaches. YOU KNOW FULL WELL that your church teaches it is, "THE ONL TRUE CHURCH" here on earth and belonging to any other will not give anyone salvation and certainly no exaltation. Is this not true?

As for what you call yourselves who cares? You believe in a false Christ so Mormons, call yourselves anything for your church is being dishonest and deceitful. With many different denominations in the world, the ones who teach ONLY the Bible and teach that people must have, a belief in Jesus Christ, accept who He is and accept Him as their Lord and Savior then there is no need for anything else. What did Christ say to Nicodemus? That we must be born again. And of course Nicodemus didn't understand what Christ was trying to tell him. Christ had to tell him that being born again was not being reborn, coming forth from Nicodemus' mother's womb; but born again of the spirit. This is what ALL BORN AGAIN Christians believe. Romans 10:9 reveals what we all need to do in order to be saved. It is plain and simple.

Now, what if a Mormon sits quietly through Sacrament meeting every Sunday but there are some doctrines that that person secretly doesn't believe in. How would anyone know what this person is thinking? They seem very much into the faith. I had several doubts when a Mormon. For one, I never believed Joseph Smith was a prophet, never did. Yes, I can call myself a hypocrite for going through the motions when I was a Mormon but when you truly look at your life, can you honestly say you do all things according to your church without ever doubting why? Were you married in the temple? Did the ceremony not bother you the first time you went through? DO you sometimes do things because you have to, because it's what's expected? Like many kids who go off on missions? My brother went on a mission ONLY to make my father happy, it was not what my brother wanted to do. So how successful was my brother then, going door to door when he didn't want to be there? Even as a young girl, when it came time to be baptized, I was afraid, and felt I was being forced to do that and wasn't able to decide for myself. Was this fair to me? What does an eight year old child understand about baptism? What can an eight year old child understand about the sacrifice Christ made for him/her? Why do Mormons force their children to be baptized when they are to young for such things and shouldn't these children be old enough to decide for themselves?

What is important Julie is that every person understands that they are a sinner. It is because of sin that Christ came to earth, taking on a physical body and living a SINLESS life and going to the cross and dying in extreme pain for us. He did that taking upon himself ALL SIN, every SIN of EVERY person who had lived, or would live. This He did because of His great love for us. It is NOT a church that matters or what a church calls itself, for the only one who does matter, is JESUS CHRIST!!

We attend a Baptist Church so according to you: "but rather by believing what Christ taught, which is embodied in His church......" we then must have the true church. "...And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47) So, it is the Lord who adds to His Church daily isn't it? HMMMM.....puts a whole new slant on things does it not? I believe what Christ taught and his teachings are embodied within our church we attend. Are His teachings embodied for real in your church? You said that both grace and works are required for salvation. The Bible disagrees with you in Romans 11:6. I believe in God's grace and believe in HIS word and nothing more. Born Again Christians don't have to rely on extra Biblical anything, we have God's word, it has been there for us and the Lord promised, "My word shall NEVER p*** away."

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]Can a person truly be a Mormon if they DON"T believe every teaching of Mormonism? Please don't try and fool me or anyone who knows about what Mormonism teaches

.

No, this is the ***ertion Billyray is making. Here is what he said when I asked:

Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

So, to you, someone can believe in "false beliefs" and be saved---or are they really Catholic if they "reject many of their tenants"? Can someone be Catholic and reject the teachings of their church?

He responded:

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

They sure can just like a you can be "mormon" and "reject many of their tenants"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, I don't think a "church" saves you. But I find it interesting that you believe a person can attend a Catholic church and still be saved as long as they reject the tenants of the Catholic church. So to you what the Catholic church teaches is not Christian...just as you believe what the LDS church teaches is not Christian, right?

I find it interesting that you think that everyone who attends a Catholic or Mormon church believes everything that the respective church teaches. Some actually read the Bible and are able to think for themselves--not accepting the false teachings that a particular organization teaches. Too bad you can't do the same. Numerous posters have shown you where you reject the Bible but thus far you have defended the false lds position. Perhaps one day this may change but I am not holding my breath.

BTW below is an example that not all who attend the lds church believe what it teaches.

http://www.newordermormon.org

What is a New Order Mormon?
New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.

[Billyray]

Another example of a mormon who didn't believe a lot of lds teachings is Grant Palmer. Grant has since resigned his membership but this was after repeated attempts by the lds church to silence him. You can read more about him and his communication with lds officials at

http://mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm

http://mormonthink.com/gptimeline.htm

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I find it interesting that you think that everyone who attends a Catholic or Mormon church believes everything that the respective church teaches. Some actually read the Bible and are able to think for themselves--not accepting the false teachings that a particular organization teaches. Too bad you can't do the same. Numerous posters have shown you where you reject the Bible but thus far you have defended the false lds position. Perhaps one day this may change but I am not holding my breath.

BTW below is an example that not all who attend the lds church believe what it teaches.

But if that is true--=that they can read the Bible and reject the tenants, why would they still attend that church?

You have yet to tell me if you see the Catholic church, with all the doctrines it espouses, a Christian church? Do you believe it teaches false doctrines that make it less likely that someone will be saved?

(Yes, don't hold your breath. My faith is very strong and I have had the spirit bear witness to me of the truthfulness of the teachings on many numerous occasions. The end result is a good and happy life.)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Another example of a mormon who didn't believe a lot of lds teachings is Grant Palmer. Grant has since resigned his membership but this was after repeated attempts by the lds church to silence him. You can read more about him and his communication with lds officials at

http://mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm

http://mormonthink.com/gptimeline.htm

Yes, he resigned his membership. That is my point. So, do you believe the Catholic church is non-Christian as well? That seems to be a question you haven't answered yet.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, he resigned his membership. That is my point.

And what about the point that prior to his resignation he was lds for many years--YET disbelieved many of the teachings--which is why the church har***ed him and tried to silence him.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And what about the point that prior to his resignation he was lds for many years--YET disbelieved many of the teachings--which is why the church har***ed him and tried to silence him.

Okay, so someone can be a member of a church, but disbelieve the church's tenants--and therefore be Christian. That still does not answer my question of whether or not the Catholic church is considered a "Christian" church according to its tenants.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, do you believe the Catholic church is non-Christian as well? That seems to be a question you haven't answered yet.

The Catholic church has many false teachings just like the mormon church. However the mormon church is MUCH further away from the truth when comparing the two. Mormonism teaches false gods--Catholicism does not. Although Catholicism teaches many false things I would still include them as Christian. Since mormonism teaches strange gods and virtually everything else that goes against what the Bible teaches they are clearly outside of Christianity.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, so someone can be a member of a church, but disbelieve the church's tenants--and therefore be Christian.

You are asking if a person can be a Christian and still be a member of the lds church. Sure. I was still a member of the lds church when I became a Christian. A Christian is someone who places their faith in the true Christ of the Bible--not their affiliation with an organization. For some reason you can't seem to separate the two.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Catholic church has many false teachings just like the mormon church. However the mormon church is MUCH further away from the truth when comparing the two. Mormonism teaches false gods--Catholicism does not. Although Catholicism teaches many false things I would still include them as Christian. Since mormonism teaches strange gods and virtually everything else that goes against what the Bible teaches they are clearly outside of Christianity.

Interesting that you can consider a church a Christian church even though you believe it has many false teachings--and that you decide based on the degree of false teachings.

So, that takes me back to the question I gave JohnT which he never answered. You then believe that the council of Trent was false doctrine regarding scripture---or not? Do you disagree with what they chose to include as scripture?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, that takes me back to the question I gave JohnT which he never answered. You then believe that the council of Trent was false doctrine regarding scripture---or not? Do you disagree with what they chose to include as scripture?

Yes I do believe that this is false doctrine. Yes I disagree with the fact that they canonized books that were not considered scripture by the early church NOR are they considered scripture by the Jewish faith. And I might add the mormons don't consider these books scripture. Perhaps you also recall what we talked about earlier that Joseph Smith owned a KJV Bible that included the Apocrypha and yet he did not include any of these books in the JST.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Interesting that you can consider a church a Christian church even though you believe it has many false teachings--and that you decide based on the degree of false teachings.

Why do you find this interesting? Can you elaborate a little bit for me?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

.

No, this is the ***ertion Billyray is making. Here is what he said when I asked:


He responded:

This was a poor response. I want to know your thoughts.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yes I do believe that this is false doctrine. Yes I disagree with the fact that they canonized books that were not considered scripture by the early church NOR are they considered scripture by the Jewish faith. And I might add the mormons don't consider these books scripture. Perhaps you also recall what we talked about earlier that Joseph Smith owned a KJV Bible that included the Apocrypha and yet he did not include any of these books in the JST.

Okay, so you believe that the Catholic church have "scripture" that is not scripture and that their false doctrine includes canonizing books that are not scripture and yet you still feel that they are a "Christian" church because they have less falsehoods than other religions.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do you find this interesting? Can you elaborate a little bit for me?

Yes, I am curious how you determine what is true and what is false. Do you base your beliefs on history? Such that you search out history to determine what was closest to what happened during Christ's time and go with that? And then by degree, anything that veers too much is no longer Christian? (As it appears you determine what is correctly that Bible based on history as noted:

Yes I disagree with the fact that they canonized books that were not considered scripture by the early church NOR are they considered scripture by the Jewish faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by neverending

This was a poor response. I want to know your thoughts.

I know that you are addressing BigJ but I would like to add a little bit more and perhaps we can get her to comment on it. I was a life long lds--but was inactive for many years after my mission. Despite being inactive I was still on the lds roles and I still believed mormonism up until the point that I became a Christian. At that point I was still lds since I was still a member of record but I didn't believe what mormonism taught. I sought out a Bible believing church quickly thereafter. I would be interested in hearing from other lds who left for Christianity and I would bet that many were converted while they were still lds and then left shortly thereafter for a solid Bible teaching church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I am curious how you determine what is true and what is false. Do you base your beliefs on history? Such that you search out history to determine what was closest to what happened during Christ's time and go with that? And then by degree, anything that veers too much is no longer Christian? (As it appears you determine what is correctly that Bible based on history as noted:

You said that you found my response as interesting. Are you going to elaborate a little bit for me why you find this so interesting?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You said that you found my response as interesting. Are you going to elaborate a little bit for me why you find this so interesting?

I just did. See above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

(As it appears you determine what is correctly that Bible based on history as noted:

The "history" that you are speaking about is about adding books that were never considered canon by the Jews or the early church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I just did. See above.

No you didn't tell me why you found my response as interesting. Are you going to tell me or not?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No you didn't tell me why you found my response as interesting. Are you going to tell me or not?

I found it interesting because you base what is scripture on your understanding of history. That is what you just told me. When I asked you if you thought the Council of Trent taught false doctrine when determining scripture, you said yes and then explained WHY by your understanding of history. I find that interesting. And yet, with this belief, you still consider them Christian based on not being too far from historically accurate.

Interesting that you didn't catch that in my first response though.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The "history" that you are speaking about is about adding books that were never considered canon by the Jews or the early church.

Yes--so, you base it on your understanding of what the Bible should be based on what you understand of history.