10 facts

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If a person who learned Hebrew speaks Egyptian, you would expect to see the same sentence format. But interestingly, studying Hebrew, there is quite a bit of this found the Book of Mormon....I am not surprised.

This cheap novel, as you call it, has the ability to improve lives, increase the spirit, increase love in the home. I am amazed you could read it 3 times and not feel and experience the difference. As I said, you must be hard-hearted indeed.

I have a brain that is not connected to the imaginary mind of Joseph Smith jr. And I never will, this is why I haven't the experience you have had with him.
Yes, even a cheap novel, book or movie can have an effect on humans good or bad. This is what makes up human.
The Book of Mormon is nothing more or less than a cheap novel, not very well written, and that is the sum of it.

[alanmolstad]

Time is a 'thing"...just the same as a chair,,,or a tree....

Time has no effect on God at all....

Time is just another 'thing" God created.

This is why there was no time p***ing "before" the "beginning"....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Time is a 'thing"...just the same as a chair,,,or a tree....

Time has no effect on God at all....

Time is just another 'thing" God created.

This is why there was no time p***ing "before" the "beginning"....

I know this might be hard to grasp at first....
But the truth is that there was no time p***ing before Genesis 1:1


This is the same when we look at john 1:1 too!

We are talking about "before" time was created.
So there was 'nothing"...no p***ing of time at all.


the moment time was created by God, THEN and only then did things change....and get older.
before time came along, nothing got older.

So time is just a creation of God that has no effect on god at all, for God is not older.

God is just as young, just as old as he ever was, or ever will be....He simply does not change....ever!
"I Change Not!"

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The "nothingness" I speak of is also without time....

"Time" is also a thing.
As "Time" is a thing, it also is a creation of God at the "beginning". and that there is no 'before" when dealing with the "beginning"

When you think about it, because we are told this all happened "In the beginning" we cant then try to guess what was God doing "before" this....as the word "Beginning" means there was nothing before this....LOL

I am attending Southwest Florida Bible College and working on my ABS(***ociate Bible Studies). I am presently taking apologetics, last cl*** was about evolution and creation. We were on the subject about the different theories of how the universe was created. One of the theories was the oscillating universe where it expands to a point then shrinks back down to the singularity explodes and repeats itself for all time. Now, his argument against that is that in order for this to be for an infinite amount of time, then because of the very definition of "infinite" we should never reach a beginning or ending. The universe would never change or exist or not be all at the same time because there is no start and no end. He does not realize that this obliterates the fact Christians believe that God did nothing for eternity. If God did nothing for eternity then for it to be true eternity in the infinite realm then God would still be doing nothing. The moment God moved, or did something, the infinite became finite. Regardless if God is outside of time, the moments God went from doing nothing for all eternity, to creating, eternity was destroyed and was no longer eternal, and a new beginning came into play and God changed his mode of operation from doing nothing, being still, to doing something to moving.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Time is a 'thing"...just the same as a chair,,,or a tree....

Time has no effect on God at all....

Time is just another 'thing" God created.

This is why there was no time p***ing "before" the "beginning"....

Regardless, you would have God in a state of nothingness before He began creating. To even state the word 'create", if you imply as you do, implies nothing and then something. This implies a state of nothingness existed at some point.

God, being eternal, would never exist in a state of nothingness.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I am attending Southwest Florida Bible College and working on my ABS(***ociate Bible Studies). I am presently taking apologetics, last cl*** was about evolution and creation. We were on the subject about the different theories of how the universe was created. One of the theories was the oscillating universe where it expands to a point then shrinks back down to the singularity explodes and repeats itself for all time. Now, his argument against that is that in order for this to be for an infinite amount of time, then because of the very definition of "infinite" we should never reach a beginning or ending. The universe would never change or exist or not be all at the same time because there is no start and no end. He does not realize that this obliterates the fact Christians believe that God did nothing for eternity. If God did nothing for eternity then for it to be true eternity in the infinite realm then God would still be doing nothing. The moment God moved, or did something, the infinite became finite. Regardless if God is outside of time, the moments God went from doing nothing for all eternity, to creating, eternity was destroyed and was no longer eternal, and a new beginning came into play and God changed his mode of operation from doing nothing, being still, to doing something to moving.

Exactly, a major flaw in early christian thinking that has continued on to this day.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

He does not realize that this obliterates the fact Christians believe that God did nothing for eternity. .....

well TrueBlue....


Before time was created there was no "eternity"


The truth is that we can't say that "God did nothing for eternity before Genesis 1:1"

We cant say that and be logical>

.
What we can say is that even 'time" itself is just as much a creation of god as stars and trees and baby fish.
And we can say that because we know time is a creation of god and had a start, we then can understand that there was "nothing" ging on before time was created, because the moment time was created things got older.....

So, we cant say that God did 'nothing" for a while as that implies that god was sitting on his hands while time was p***ing.
But as we know ,Time was not p***ing.
Nothing was getting older.
Before Genesis 1 time had not been created yet.

So when we come to a you and I making use in conversations of the term "eternity".......we have to define it to mean "before time"

So this better understanding of the word "eternity" gets rid of the idea of "did" or of "no doing" as they are terms that are connected to the p***ing of time itself.

"Doing nothing" is still talking about the p***ing of time.
At that is at odds with our understanding that time is a creation...Time is a created "thing"
So you cant logically speak of doing or not doing things before the creation, as there was no p***ing of time to measure such statements.




And this points us to the single most important fact we get out of looking into this subject...and that is that "God is not like us"....not like us at all!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well TrueBlue....


Before time was created there was no "eternity"


The truth is that we can't say that "God did nothing for eternity before Genesis 1:1"

We cant say that and be logical>

.
What we can say is that even 'time" itself is just as much a creation of god as stars and trees and baby fish.
And we can say that because we know time is a creation of god and had a start, we then can understand that there was "nothing" ging on before time was created, because the moment time was created things got older.....

So, we cant say that God did 'nothing" for a while as that implies that god was sitting on his hands while time was p***ing.
But as we know ,Time was not p***ing.
Nothing was getting older.

You are missing the point. The minute you believe God created something from nothingness destroys your own point. You are caught in the time aspect of it. Let go of your no-time fixation and you can see that it still doesn't work even if time did not exist.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You are missing the point. The minute you believe God created something from nothingness destroys your own point. You are caught in the time aspect of it. Let go of your no-time fixation and you can see that it still doesn't work even if time did not exist.

we are held by time....

God is not.
God is just as much now watching the big bang,, as he is watching me type this, and watching me die.
God is not more "here" then he is "there"....(John 8:58)

So while time and space and the earth is a creation that came out of nothing by the spoken word of god....God did not change when he made time...

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well TrueBlue....


Before time was created there was no "eternity"


The truth is that we can't say that "God did nothing for eternity before Genesis 1:1"

We cant say that and be logical>

.
What we can say is that even 'time" itself is just as much a creation of god as stars and trees and baby fish.
And we can say that because we know time is a creation of god and had a start, we then can understand that there was "nothing" ging on before time was created, because the moment time was created things got older.....

So, we cant say that God did 'nothing" for a while as that implies that god was sitting on his hands while time was p***ing.
But as we know ,Time was not p***ing.
Nothing was getting older.

I understand that. Infinite is infinite and in order for that to be true as Christians claim then nothing would have changed. Infinite is outside of time. Nothing happens in infinity. You can't say that God did nothing, then did something. If existing in infinity as infinite was described by my professor in order to argue against modern science, nothing would change. There are no points of this or that in infinity. The moment something changes a point of reference is created, destroying infinite as the professor described it. The moment God started creating, a point of reference was created. A change took place from doing nothing to doing something. God changed, from a God of nothing, to a God of something.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You are missing the point. The minute you believe God created something from nothingness destroys your own point. You are caught in the time aspect of it. Let go of your no-time fixation and you can see that it still doesn't work even if time did not exist.

I was thinking of that very thing, last night, when I was, here, reading posts. If God does not exist in "time", how could there be "nothing" at one point and the "universe" at the next point? It's an interesting question.

But, then, again, I don't think our minds are capable of understanding all of God's ways.

[alanmolstad]

I have to get to work here...
I will try to read that last one again when I get back.

But I think someone was telling you that when god created the universe he changed?
If that is what they told you?..then they are in error.

God created the universe, but never changed Himself.
god is timeless.....not just very old...but totlally un-connected to the p***ing of time as we know it.

God was timeless before the big bang....and he never changed at all after the big bang....

he is the same.....

God is the same now, as he was before he created the p***ing of time.

God cant change...

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we are held by time....

God is not.
God is just as much now watching the big bang,, as he is watching me type this, and watching me die.
God is not more "here" then he is "there"....(John 8:58)

So while time and space and the earth is a creation that came out of nothing by the spoken word of god....God did not change when he made time...

So Christ is eternally suffering on the cross? Or did Christ always have a body of flesh and bone? He existed outside of time and space, where He exists now, with a body. At some point of reference, Christ existed outside of time without a body. Now existing outside of time with a body. According to you there is eternal, where nothing changes. Like you said God is watching the Big Bang in an eternal still picture never beginning never ending, never becoming but always being. This moment never ending yet never having been, yet eternally past.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

I was thinking of that very thing, last night, when I was, here, reading posts. If God does not exist in "time", how could there be "nothing" at one point and the "universe" at the next point? It's an interesting question.

But, then, again, I don't think our minds are capable of understanding all of God's ways.

Libby, I am positive we can't---but we are capable of understanding once taught. This is why once God revealed this truth to Joseph Smith--it is like, yes, of course, how could it be any other way?

I am beginning to realize a lot of problems people attach to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is merely that they do not see things as we do. Therefore, with their narrow vision, putting our beliefs into their own paradigm, they criticize. (Truth is, I think any time a religion is criticizing another, I am sure this is the case. We have blinders on and think they MUST think as we do.) That is another thing I love about Joseph Smith---or at least what was revealed to him---he recognized that God is no respecter of persons and therefore truth can be found in so many places. Joseph Smith revealed that if ever we find something lovely, praiseworthy---well, I will give you his words exactly.

Article of Faith 13

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

In other words, we believe in treating others well---and we "believe all things, hope all things"--which means we don't turn away from any idea wherever it is. We study it out, we look for what is good, what is praiseworthy. We use the guidance of the Holy Ghost to teach us what is truth. We are not afraid to look, to see, to explore, to think.

I think what astounds people is that they go, but look, we found some dirt---but we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We see the good, we hold on to it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I was thinking of that very thing, last night, when I was, here, reading posts. If God does not exist in "time", how could there be "nothing" at one point and the "universe" at the next point? It's an interesting question.

But, then, again, I don't think our minds are capable of understanding all of God's ways.

Libby you keep switching your POV of view as you ask that question.

Remember god is not held by time.
So god can create time for us all he wants...it done not change him in the slightest way.

The way god was = is the way god is....



So God can create according to his own plans all He wants, and it has no effect on him at all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

So Christ is eternally suffering on the cross? .

What is your pov?

If you look at the cross from God's point of view?....then the cross is like a finished painting, with no start, no end,,,no middle,,,



Remember God is not held by time,,,"John 8:58





if you look at the cross from the human pov then the cross was over 2000 years ago and only lasted a few hours at most....

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have to get to work here...
I will try to read that last one again when I get back.

But I think someone was telling you that when god created the universe he changed?
If that is what they told you?..then they are in error.

God created the universe, but never changed Himself.
god is timeless.....not just very old...but totlally un-connected to the p***ing of time as we know it.

God was timeless before the big bang....and he never changed at all after the big bang....

he is the same.....

God is the same now, as he was before he created the p***ing of time.

God cant change...

No that is not what they taught. That is not what they believe. That is just the logical conclusion of there theory of how they state infinity works. They do not realize it because they did not think it through to the end of the logical conclusion of that line of thinking. They thought of a way to explain away the science of the Big Bang in order to promote a 6 day creationist line of thinking. It worked for his present argument but did not take time to see how it effected Christian notions of God.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I am feeling your hate. You have made your point. I do not feel any love from you. You have made that clear to me---especially in your willingness to bear false witness against my beliefs because your hate is so strong. (Oh, btw, I never shouted at you--my big red bold was for only a single word so you did not miss it--not a yell. If any of my words were bolded, it was because my post picked up your bold syntax. If you perceive that as yelling, you must perceive yourself as yelling at me.)

Somehow your post did remind me of this scripture though:

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

I don't hate you.. I love you in Christ.. He loved you enough to die for you.. Julie if you could be saved by my efforts I would die for you too. But your love for a lie, and yes I hates lies, will hold your heart tightly in it's grip until it is to late or God breaks it's hold on your heart. If I didn't love you with His love I would allow you to plunge into hell without a word of warning.. I can't do that..

I have never said one false thing about mormonism and you have not been able to show a single statement where I have.. I use you own scripture and statements from your leaders made as they spoke in conference or in official meetings of the church. You deny that I know but your denials don't change the facts. You compare your own records controlled by your own church to the false teachings of a few egnorant men as they wrote books ascribing them to Thomas, Enoch, even Jesus. Word that were not written by Christian leaders, not controlled by the Christian church, and their message never accepted by Her..

Shouting is a way of emphsizing a point you wish to make.. No one like to be yelled at but I agree that sometimes it is the only way to be heard.. I responded that baptism was not used in my additional 10 facts about the beliefs of mormonism.. yes the word was used in a p***age of LDS scripture I used but it wasn't the theme of that scripture. No read it again, Maybe you will see it.. I doubt it, you can't even see racism in saying that a skin of blackness is a part of the judgments of God for sin..

What are those commandments? Do they include a command to Be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48)? Do you keep that commandment? No, then you don't Love Jesus! Hold it maybe if we would only Believe In HIM he would give us Everlasting Life (John 3:16). Maybe we can believe the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul and claim the promise that Jesus became sin for us that we could become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). Looks like we can obey the commandment to keep His commandments by our faith in Him.. Otherwise any attempt to be perfect on our own bring us to self righteousness not God's righteousness.. To fail in being as perfect as God just leads you to be guilty of the whole law before a Holy God (James 2:10)..

If you aren't keeping all of the commandments of Jesus by using His word you condemn me, you are the ones being Pharisaical in judging me for a sin that you yourself won't keep. Of course all that I just said is a lie, right? God doesn't love the world enough to give us Jesus, a single sin isn't enough to make us guilty of the whole of the Law, and we can't be perfect before God in holding faith in Jesus.. Those are all lies right? WRONG!!! Those are God's word. His promises. Without those promises we have no hope at all.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What is your pov?

If you look at the cross from God's point of view?....then the cross is like a finished painting, with no start, no end,,,no middle,,,



Remember God is not held by time,,,"John 8:58





if you look at the cross from the human pov then the cross was over 2000 years ago and only lasted a few hours at most....

So if I am understanding you correctly, then at some point the picture was not painted?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I don't hate you.. I love you in Christ..

I don't think you understand that when you spread falsehoods and half-truths about my beliefs, I can never understand this as love.

Which brings to mind another scripture:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding br***, or a tinkling cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)

You spew filth out of your mouth and then tell me it is love? No, James--this is not love.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

So if I am understanding you correctly, then at some point the picture was not painted?

I think he is struggling to see outside of his own paradigm on this one.

I am beginning to realize is that many of the criticisms of our beliefs can be seen as Plato explains. There are those that are in a cave, watching shadows on the wall. They criticize the shadows because they don't see the light. That is why we can keep explaining that what they are seeing is not right, but they don't see it and refuse to step outside of the cave to really understand our beliefs.

That is why we need to tread lightly on all religions. If we really want to understand them, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt---try to see things as they do. The problem with this whole site is the Walter Martin, in his own cave, created a site to criticize all other religions.

But we don't understand God by staying in our own cave, but walking out in the light. We love, truly love, and appreciate others. We understand we can gain from seeing things in a new light. This is one of the benefits of going on missions. Missionaries go all over the world. They see so many cultures. They truly learn to love and understand others. Then they bring this back and this love and understanding becomes part of the gospel. It is a hard process, but one Joseph Smith revealed and can be seen in the verse "God is no respecter of persons." This truth is revealed in the fact that all people on earth are children of God and are loved by Him and that He desires to save them all.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think he is struggling to see outside of his own paradigm on this one.

I am beginning to realize is that many of the criticisms of our beliefs can be seen as Plato explains. There are those that are in a cave, watching shadows on the wall. They criticize the shadows because they don't see the light. That is why we can keep explaining that what they are seeing is not right, but they don't see it and refuse to step outside of the cave to really understand our beliefs.

That is why we need to tread lightly on all religions. If we really want to understand them, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt---try to see things as they do. The problem with this whole site is the Walter Martin, in his own cave, created a site to criticize all other religions.

But we don't understand God by staying in our own cave, but walking out in the light. We love, truly love, and appreciate others. We understand we can gain from seeing things in a new light. This is one of the benefits of going on missions. Missionaries go all over the world. They see so many cultures. They truly learn to love and understand others. Then they bring this back and this love and understanding becomes part of the gospel. It is a hard process, but one Joseph Smith revealed and can be seen in the verse "God is no respecter of persons." This truth is revealed in the fact that all people on earth are children of God and are loved by Him and that He desires to save them all.

I agree. This partly why my son and I have started going to this college. He goes to a Christian school in 10th grade and is being negatively affected by some of there teachings. For instance, the idea that someone who has never had the opportunity to be taught of Christ or even heard the name Christ, will be sent to hell, and the idea that if we say the 3 second prayer saying Christ Im a sinner I accept you, then we have a golden ticket as he puts it. His views of Christianity of this version are becoming too negative and dark. I thought it best that we get a better idea of Christian beliefs and understand where and why they are today in the hope that he will soften His heart a little.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I agree. This partly why my son and I have started going to this college. He goes to a Christian school in 10th grade and is being negatively affected by some of there teachings. For instance, the idea that someone who has never had the opportunity to be taught of Christ or even heard the name Christ, will be sent to hell, and the idea that if we say the 3 second prayer saying Christ Im a sinner I accept you, then we have a golden ticket as he puts it. His views of Christianity of this version are becoming too negative and dark. I thought it best that we get a better idea of Christian beliefs and understand where and why they are today in the hope that he will soften His heart a little.

I agree. A mission will help him as well. That is why I am grateful for those such as Libby who seem to keep an open mind and are not so quick to judge. I also keep in mind all the good non-denominational christians I know and love and try to remember that the stuff spewed on this site is often not how most christians think or live (at least not the ones that are my friends). They are focused on Christ and in doing what is right in the eyes of God. I also have a good Muslim friends and I see the same thing there--trying to do what God wants. When I asked how they perceive all this jihad stuff, they see it very similarly to christians who are part of the KKK---saying that they believe, but acting in hate for power.

I often wonder why I come to this site, but I guess somewhere deep down, I keep hoping that there are those who read who go--let me find out for myself. Let me not be so quick to judge.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I agree. A mission will help him as well. That is why I am grateful for those such as Libby who seem to keep an open mind and are not so quick to judge. I also keep in mind all the good non-denominational christians I know and love and try to remember that the stuff spewed on this site is often not how most christians think or live (at least not the ones that are my friends). They are focused on Christ and in doing what is right in the eyes of God. I also have a good Muslim friends and I see the same thing there--trying to do what God wants. When I asked how they perceive all this jihad stuff, they see it very similarly to christians who are part of the KKK---saying that they believe, but acting in hate for power.

I often wonder why I come to this site, but I guess somewhere deep down, I keep hoping that there are those who read who go--let me find out for myself. Let me not be so quick to judge.

I come because of those who lurk, who have questions. They need to be answered. They need to be presented with a clear choice. I think they don't get the fairest dichotomy here. Considering those Christians who post here are not the best examples of Christians I would like I our beliefs compared too, kinda of unfair. But people need answers.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I come because of those who lurk, who have questions. They need to be answered. They need to be presented with a clear choice. I think they don't get the fairest dichotomy here. Considering those Christians who post here are not the best examples of Christians I would like I our beliefs compared too, kinda of unfair. But people need answers.

Okay, then help me out here, what is the one most unfair comparison we Christian do here that you as a Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary minder say we are guilty of?