10 facts

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You did not answer my question. Because you believe God has no past and no future and this only exists to us---do you believe that all things exist to God and that for Him, there is not a time we did not exist?

Julie,
Since I know the doctrines of Mormonism and understand that you believe that God was not always god but was once a man; and I am speaking of God the Father here and that he progressed to his lofty position. As for myself and all Christians, we believe that God has always existed, He had no beginning and he has no end, He will exist forever, from everlasting to everlasting, for eternity. It is difficult for our minds to fully understand what that will be like but you can rest ***ured that God was never a man, but has always been God. If this idea of progression were true, then what God does our God worship, for certainly there would have to be a higher God then ours if the idea of progression were true; it only makes sense.

We never existed til we were created within our mother's womb. Scripture says that God created the spirit of man within him, meaning us. God knew each and every one of us before we were created. He knew and knows everything we will do. If not, then we can't call Him omniscient can we? You could say that God is like an artist before the artist even picks up a paint brush, he/she has an idea of what he/she wants to paint. The same can be said of God, he knew what he wanted to create and made it happen. All the animals in the Garden of Eden for example, God thought in His mind what he wanted to create, what He wanted these animals to look like etc. Sometimes, we ****yze way to much when we should be having faith. Just take God at His word and nothing else.

My son-in-law was a great example of over ****yzing God. At one point he didn't believe in God at all. Now with so much rejoicing, he is attending church with my daughter and my grand children and I can only thank God for answering prayer. This means everything to me and James for as time p***es we all can see how evil the world is getting and it will be our faith that will sustain us in the hard times to come.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I don't not consider Jerome a prophet no more than I consider me a prophet. He just happened to be the guy who took it upon himself to get the *** done.
He didn't use a magic hat, or hide behind a curtain. All he did was work hard over years and come up with the best we could have. There is nothing more in the New Testament a lost soul needs to gain Salvation. There are no need for any new books even if it was written in Reformed Egyptian, and popped out of Joseph Smith jr. Hat.

So, he is the guy who took it upon himself to determine what was inspired and what wasn't, but he himself had no direct communication from God. Pretty scary to base your beliefs on him then--as he could be wrong....if it was, as you seem to believe, just his best guess.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]Julie,
Since I know the doctrines of Mormonism and understand that you believe that God was not always god but was once a man;

Your first sentence tells me you don't know the doctrines of Mormonism.

So you don't think we ever existed until we were in our mother's womb. So, to you---not all things are exist with God, but do have a past, present, and future to him both in this time and in eternity. Is that correct?

Do you also adhere to the idea that God existed with nothingness until He created something?

How did he know us before He created us? What part of us did He know?

(Oh, btw, I am not over-****yzing God, I am just questioning your own logic in your conclusions when it comes to God.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray is trying to make the point that there were books put in and removed from the Bible, but that Jerome didn't agree.

Perhaps you are starting to have some short term memory issues because in case you forgot you are the one who brought this whole thing up on page two. I will try and jog your memory a little bit and give you the first couple posts. Let me know if this refreshes your memory. If not I would be happy to give you a more lengthy post with more of our discussion.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .I'm saying you have no idea what decisions were made to make the Bible, what was kept, what was kept out. . .

Originally Posted by Billyray

Give us you theory so we can talk about it BigJ.

Let's start with this one.

Which books are out there that should be in the Bible that are not currently in the Bible?

Remember now? Do you want to discuss this some more since we really haven't finished with our discussion here--especially given the fact that you seem to believe that the Apocrypha was scripture that was taken out by the Protestant Christians.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Your first sentence tells me you don't know the doctrines of Mormonism.

So you don't think we ever existed until we were in our mother's womb. So, to you---not all things are exist with God, but do have a past, present, and future to him both in this time and in eternity. Is that correct?

Do you also adhere to the idea that God existed with nothingness until He created something?

How did he know us before He created us? What part of us did He know?

(Oh, btw, I am not over-****yzing God, I am just questioning your own logic in your conclusions when it comes to God.)

Evidently Julie, you don't read nor comprehend what someone posts. I have to tell you again what I said. Mormons believe that God was once a man, is that true or not? As for me and millions of Christians we do not believe that. We believe that God ALWAYS Existed. He has no beginning and has no end.

Now as for Mormonism, do you not believe in eternal progression? If this is true, then what God does our God worship as there has to be a God older then ours? Do you understand now? And NO! I do not believe in pre-existence. We didn't exist til God created us within our mother's womb. Scripture says, "The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, sayeth the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the SPIRIT OF MAN WITHIN HIM" (Zechariah 12:1). Again, you didn't read my post. As God is like an artist, knowing what he wanted to create before He created it. God is not subject to time, he created time for man. If God were subject to time then He can't be called, omnipresent. When the universe was created, God created the matter that it took to do that. So I can see that the God you believe in knows nothing, didn't always exist, is a man and isn't omnipresent. A very weak and sad god in my opinion. It would be nice if you read a person's post, ALL OF IT before commenting.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Neverending
Since I know the doctrines of Mormonism and understand that you believe that God was not always god but was once a man;

BigJ
Your first sentence tells me you don't know the doctrines of Mormonism.

BigJ this is a very interesting topic from a lds point of view, perhaps we can flush it out a little bit to see where you actually stand on this one.

Let me throw out some statements and tell me which ones you agree with (as it pertains to mormon thinking) and which ones you disagree with.

1. God the Father was once a man that lived on another planet.

2. The Father's role on that planet is ***umed by many LDS to be like Jesus' role on this planet

3. His role would have been as a savior on that planet and in that role would be considered a god

But let's take it back a little bit further paralleling Jesus' existence

4. Prior to coming to this other earth he would have been a spirit child of his father and mother in a pre earth life--and just like Jesus he would still be considered a god like Jesus in the pre earth life.

5. Prior to the father's spiritual birth to his heavenly father and mother he would have been an "intelligence".

6. A lot of lds would cl***ify an "intelligence"--prior to their spiritual birth to heavenly parents--as not being a god at that point in time.

I would love to hear your input on this BigJ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, so he created the future and the past to you. So to you, there was no future and no past until God created it. But to Him, do you recognize that all existed with him as there is no future or past to him---or do you think that once he created it, there became a past and a future to Him in which there existed things after, but not before? Or do you believe that since God has no future and no past, all things exist with Him? (Regardless of a past or future to you.)

This actually makes sense, that we exist in God's Mind "eternally", until the idea of God being, "once a man", is introduced. Then, for me, it gets confusing, again.

Interesting discussion. I've been trying to catch up.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

This actually makes sense, that we exist in God's Mind "eternally", until the idea of God being, "once a man", is introduced. Then, for me, it gets confusing, again.

Interesting discussion. I've been trying to catch up.

I think because you think of being a "man" differently. Christians think of man as finite--something that didn't exist and then God created. Once you understand God as eternal and therefore all being eternal with Him, then God being a man does not make God finite in any way shape or form. (This is easy to comprehend just by thinking about Jesus Christ having a body.)

So, when someone accuses Mormons of believing that God was once a man, I think that they are thinking in finite, time terms---rather than we have eternal natures because God is eternal. Than--who we are is eternal--the essence of who we are is eternal. As I explained before, in this way, God did not create something to sin or to go against him or created something flawed, rather he gave the power of choice to something that already existed. He allows us to discover ourselves. He provides a way to do it (in time.) And because (in time) we discover our flawed nature, he (because of his infinite love) provides a way to overcome this nature (the Savior, atonement).

And if you think about it further, because he knows all of us eternally, he knows who will choose what. Therefore, foreordination becomes merely God acknowledging and choosing those natures he knows will follow Him (in time...or here on earth.) Those "rulers and magistrates' that James likes to refer to (or elhohim/gods) were already pre-chosen---because as God explains to Abraham, that they were noble and great before the world was (or time existed.)

To me, once the plan of salvation becomes clear--you can never go back. You see something and once you see it, you can see it every where in the Bible and here on earth. You see the great plan in motion in how we experience creation itself.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ this is a very interesting topic from a lds point of view, perhaps we can flush it out a little bit to see where you actually stand on this one.

Let me throw out some statements and tell me which ones you agree with (as it pertains to mormon thinking) and which ones you disagree with.


I would love to hear your input on this BigJ.

Quote me the scriptures and we will talk. Because if you want to talk in deeper terms, you have to give up your limited understanding of my beliefs.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Quote me the scriptures and we will talk. Because if you want to talk in deeper terms, you have to give up your limited understanding of my beliefs.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Neverending
Since I know the doctrines of Mormonism and understand that you believe that God was not always god but was once a man;

BigJ
Your first sentence tells me you don't know the doctrines of Mormonism. *

You criticized Neverending but she is right and you were wrong to criticize her. Apologize and I will drop it. Or we can discuss these points so that you can try and prove that you were right and she was wrong.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You criticized Neverending but she is right and you were wrong to criticize her. Apologize and I will drop it. Or we can discuss these points so that you can try and prove that you were right and she was wrong.

She doesn't know our doctrine. That is clear from the way she writes. I guess you don't really want to find those scriptures--or more likely, you really can't find them.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think because you think of being a "man" differently. Christians think of man as finite--something that didn't exist and then God created. Once you understand God as eternal and therefore all being eternal with Him, then God being a man does not make God finite in any way shape or form. (This is easy to comprehend just by thinking about Jesus Christ having a body.)

So, when someone accuses Mormons of believing that God was once a man, I think that they are thinking in finite, time terms---rather than we have eternal natures because God is eternal. Than--who we are is eternal--the essence of who we are is eternal. As I explained before, in this way, God did not create something to sin or to go against him or created something flawed, rather he gave the power of choice to something that already existed. He allows us to discover ourselves. He provides a way to do it (in time.) And because (in time) we discover our flawed nature, he (because of his infinite love) provides a way to overcome this nature (the Savior, atonement).

And if you think about it further, because he knows all of us eternally, he knows who will choose what. Therefore, foreordination becomes merely God acknowledging and choosing those natures he knows will follow Him (in time...or here on earth.) Those "rulers and magistrates' that James likes to refer to (or elhohim/gods) were already pre-chosen---because as God explains to Abraham, that they were noble and great before the world was (or time existed.)

To me, once the plan of salvation becomes clear--you can never go back. You see something and once you see it, you can see it every where in the Bible and here on earth. You see the great plan in motion in how we experience creation itself.

Thanks for the further explanations, Julie. I can, actually, understand what you're saying. This way of thinking about God is also in eastern traditions, like Hinduism. I see some value in looking at it that way, because I don't think even Christians can deny that, in some sense, we have existed eternally in the Eye of God.

I really don't claim to know much, anymore. The older you get and the more you study, the less you seem to know, for sure. I enjoy looking at all perspectives with wonder and great interest. I suppose we will know more about this, someday..or I certainly hope so.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks for the further explanations, Julie. I can, actually, understand what you're saying. This way of thinking about God is also in eastern traditions, like Hinduism. I see some value in looking at it that way, because I don't think even Christians can deny that, in some sense, we have existed eternally in the Eye of God.

I really don't claim to know much, anymore. The older you get and the more you study, the less you seem to know, for sure. I enjoy looking at all perspectives with wonder and great interest. I suppose we will know more about this, someday..or I certainly hope so.

I agree--the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. I was not aware of this being an eastern tradition, but when I studied Hebrew, I found that the Bible has eastern influence.

[Libby]

It really does. I was surprised to learn just how much..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

She doesn't know our doctrine. That is clear from the way she writes. I guess you don't really want to find those scriptures--or more likely, you really can't find them.

No apology to Neverending? OK then I guess we will get to discuss the points that I brought up above since you said that she was wrong--but you are wrong on this one OR are you being a little bit naughty by fibbing a little bit tonight. She said that the lds father has not always been a god you said she was wrong with means that you believe that the Father has alway been a god. Right?

1. God the Father was once a man that lived on another planet.

2. The Father's role on that planet is ***umed by many LDS to be like Jesus' role on this planet

3. His role would have been as a savior on that planet and in that role would be considered a god

But let's take it back a little bit further paralleling Jesus' existence

4. Prior to coming to this other earth he would have been a spirit child of his father and mother in a pre earth life--and just like Jesus he would still be considered a god like Jesus in the pre earth life.

5. Prior to the father's spiritual birth to his heavenly father and mother he would have been an "intelligence".

6. A lot of lds would cl***ify an "intelligence"--prior to their spiritual birth to heavenly parents--as not being a god at that point in time.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

once again we have to remember the type of point of view we have when talking about the topic.

god is not "in the grasp" of time p***ing.

So God looks at all of time as if its a finished painting....
What I mean by this is that God does not have to "think back"...or does not have to "glance ahead"
Its all just a finished "thing" to God.


But we are trapped within the grasp of time.
We have moments that age us....we get older...

so we look at the p***ing of time like we are reading a book...one page follows another/one moment of our lives follows another.


Now because we are talking about the nature of God...even my image of a painting breaks down because of the simple fact that god is unlike us so much that any effort to understand him will fail.
So when I say God kinda looks at the universe and time like we look at a painting, what Im dealing with is that fact that when we look at a painting there is no "implied time" to it like there is to a book.

With a book you clearly see where the start is, and where the end is.
But when you look at a painting there is no start....you don't have to start at one place, scan across, then drop down a line to see the "next" moment.

The painting is all at once, all the same.

God is kinda like that when he looks at time.
God is not here in my "now" any more than he is currently watching my mom being born....or watching the Big bang, or watching the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Its all the same to God because he is outside the grasp of time.

God has no personal past....no possible future....no next moment.

God does not get older, God was never any younger.

God is not connected or effected by this thing we call "time"

So then here is my question? Has God, Jesus Christ, always had a body of flesh and bone, or was He once only spirit, then gained a body of flesh and bone, or does He eternally exist in two forms simultaneously? The same with us, although I believe we existed eternally, you believe we, meaning spirit and body was created at conception. Do we simultaneously not exist and exist?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Forgive me for how that sounded. It's unfair to you Christians, because there is little logic and a very convoluted ideas you put out just to prove Mormons wrong.

Well, thank you, but I don't have to do anything to prove LDSinc. is nothing more than BS! Joseph Smith jr. Does it for me.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I don't think you understand that when you spread falsehoods and half-truths about my beliefs, I can never understand this as love.

Which brings to mind another scripture:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding br***, or a tinkling cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)

You spew filth out of your mouth and then tell me it is love? No, James--this is not love.

You still have the duty of showing me where I have used a single half truth or Falsehood about anything concerning mormonism.. You keep accusing me of doing so but you don't provide any evidence that shows I have committed any such crimes.

Julie it is not loving to allow a person like you for whom Jesus died to go through life believing a lie.. And you do believe the lies of Joseph Smith. Lies that corrupt even the nature of God. Remember jesus said that God is Spirit and that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone.. The Holy Spirit through Paul teaches us that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. But along comes Smith and he teaches that the Father has a physical body as tangible as man's.. That He is Being who has a body of flesh and bone.. Who is the truth here Jesus or Smith, the Holy Spirit or Smith.. Their statements are mutually exclusive.. If the Persons of God are truthful Smith lied. I can't believe it is the other way around..

I am required to love people, I am not required to love organizations or the lies they have spun to support their authority of people. I do NOT love mormonism.. I do love the LDS people.. I have said this before. I live in the Salt Lake Valley. The LDS are my neighbors, my friends, even my family.. I do love them. I love then because God loves them so much He died for them that they might have everlasting life.. I don't have to love their error and I don't.. I will hold up Jesus and His word given in the Bible claiming His promise that if He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself.. The only thing keeping you from the cross and repentance is your pride that you are capable to making yourself worthy to be called His child. Making yourself acceptable through an obedience to God's laws and ordinances that no one has ever been able to obtain..

You now call the teaching of His word filth.. At least that is what it must be because that is what I say here.. I say that The Lord our God is one Lord (Deut 6:4) Instead of agreeing with Joseph Smith that we have three Gods.. I teach that God created the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1) instead of believing the teaching of a man that we existed as spirit being before we came to this world, and before that some disembodied intelligence that is co-eternal with God.. That is man invented nonsense. There is nothing in the Bible that proves we existed before we entered this world. Oh but you will point to *** 38:4-7, who were these sons of God? There were the angelic creation.. The same kind of beings that we know Satan to have been before he fell. They are listed as a different creation than man's and named seraphim (Isaiah 6:1-8) and the cherubim (Hebrews 9:5).. No where are they referred to as premortal men. That part of LDS doctrine is again just an invention of a man, it is not included in the word of God.. So show me how confronting error, the sheer imagination of a man mind is spewing filth.. I have said only good things about you.. You come across as a fine lady.. A special person Jesus loves so much He died for you.. I will not drag you in the dirt when He loves you that much.. But I have no such respect for mormonism.. Telling you the truth as God revealed it to us is LOVE.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You still have the duty of showing me where I have used a single half truth or Falsehood about anything concerning mormonism.. You keep accusing me of doing so but you don't provide any evidence that shows I have committed any such crimes.

I have provided ample evidence--you have ignored it. Anyone who wants the proof can go back on read on the subjects that have already been discussed ample times and in which you were part of or privy to the conversation. Your rejection of my proof is does not mean I did not provide any.

And James, don't kid yourself believing that you teach the word. You dig up what you perceive as dirt and then you call it teaching the word. It is not.

[John T]

Originally Posted by John T [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

By not knowing FACTS, you speak foolishly, Julie.
Evidently, you know very little about church history, or else the source from which you got your material is a quack, posing as a scholar.

Go look up the Council of Trent (from 13 December 1545, and 4 December 1563). I will not give you any more data other than say "removal" was not the operative word.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

JohnT---then I speak likewise. You know only part of our history and mostly from quacks who pose as scholars. Once again, the point I am making refers to the hypocrisy shown here.

Julie,

I gave you the chance to make a correction in your historically inaccurate statement about the alleged "removal" of the apocryphal books from Bible, which happened during the Reformation. I also provided you with the name and the date of the Church Council that the event took place so you could look it up in ANY search engine to get the truth.

However, you somehow morphed the reply into a totally irrelevant subject: your impression of my knowledge of LDS history. Can you see that is what you have done?

If you are wanting to discuss a matter of church history, which you are in error, I will be happy to continue discussing that.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by John T

Julie,

I gave you the chance to make a correction in your historically inaccurate statement about the alleged "removal" of the apocryphal books from Bible, which happened during the Reformation. I also provided you with the name and the date of the Church Council that the event took place so you could look it up in ANY search engine to get the truth.

However, you somehow morphed the reply into a totally irrelevant subject: your impression of my knowledge of LDS history. Can you see that is what you have done?

If you are wanting to discuss a matter of church history, which you are in error, I will be happy to continue discussing that.

Please go back and follow the discussion I had with Billyray here. You will see the discussion regarding the addition and subsequent removal of the books.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Please go back and follow the discussion I had with Billyray here. You will see the discussion regarding the addition and subsequent removal of the books.

BigJ--JohnT and I are in perfect agreement on this specific topic which should be obvious if you actually go back and look at our exchange. He is kindly trying to get you to correct your incorrect ***ertion that the apocryphal books were removed from the Bible.

Remember that you are the one who brought this subject up--yet you don't seem to be willing to follow through with the discussion.

[John T]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

So then here is my question? Has God, Jesus Christ, always had a body of flesh and bone, or was He once only spirit, then gained a body of flesh and bone, or does He eternally exist in two forms simultaneously? The same with us, although I believe we existed eternally, you believe we, meaning spirit and body was created at conception. Do we simultaneously not exist and exist?

I can give you Scripture for explaining exactly what Jesus did, and exactly who He is. But before I do that, WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT?

[John T]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Please go back and follow the discussion I had with Billyray here. You will see the discussion regarding the addition and subsequent removal of the books.

Please demonstrate where in ANY of those you cites any authoritative and objective resource. All I saw was your personal pontification parading as phacts. (I had to do that to keep up the alliteration!)

On the other hand, I gave you the exact place where the Apo****ha was ADDED, and I let you choose what sort of authority you chose to confirm the truth of what I said. Your recollections of things is not accurate, not are they authoritative.

If you want to learn truth, look up the Council of Trent. If you wish to remain ignorant of the facts, then do nothing. But willfully remaining in ignorance of the facts will not serve you well.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think because you think of being a "man" differently. Christians think of man as finite--something that didn't exist and then God created. Once you understand God as eternal and therefore all being eternal with Him, then God being a man does not make God finite in any way shape or form. (This is easy to comprehend just by thinking about Jesus Christ having a body.)

So, when someone accuses Mormons of believing that God was once a man, I think that they are thinking in finite, time terms---rather than we have eternal natures because God is eternal. Than--who we are is eternal--the essence of who we are is eternal. As I explained before, in this way, God did not create something to sin or to go against him or created something flawed, rather he gave the power of choice to something that already existed. He allows us to discover ourselves. He provides a way to do it (in time.) And because (in time) we discover our flawed nature, he (because of his infinite love) provides a way to overcome this nature (the Savior, atonement).

And if you think about it further, because he knows all of us eternally, he knows who will choose what. Therefore, foreordination becomes merely God acknowledging and choosing those natures he knows will follow Him (in time...or here on earth.) Those "rulers and magistrates' that James likes to refer to (or elhohim/gods) were already pre-chosen---because as God explains to Abraham, that they were noble and great before the world was (or time existed.)

To me, once the plan of salvation becomes clear--you can never go back. You see something and once you see it, you can see it every where in the Bible and here on earth. You see the great plan in motion in how we experience creation itself.

Julie,
What? Nothing you have said made any sense at all! All you did was ignore my question that YOU and ALL LDS believe that God (God the Father) was once a man. That he was born, had a body and had to have lived a great life to gain his exaltation so he could become God. Please try and keep up. Now, do you and the members of your church not believe in Progression in the hereafter? That is how your God grew and became the being he is now. Is this not so? Do you personally believe that you too will progress in the hereafter along with your husband so that you along with him can create spirit children after your husband has created a world like earth? I don't care about you going off on a tangent about free will and God knowing everything; I already know these things. I don't care about your opinion about salvation, I was asking about whether you believe God the Father was once a man. Leave Christ out of this conversation because we all know he came to earth and had a body....this is ALL about God the Father. Even the Bible says that God is spirit. Are you going to argue what Christ told us about God the Father is wrong? JS knew more then the Apostles who lived with Christ, was taught by Christ and were witnesses to everything he did?