Mormonism is claiming they have set aside their Bigotry

[James Banta]

It is true that many a Christian church held that the black race were inferior the white race.. Since that time churches like the Southern Baptists have apologized for their history of bigotry and hate. Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate.. But what is this? Mormonism have their racism actually embedded into their scripture? Stating that priesthood was denied to a man because he was the offspring of Ham who is taught by an LDS apostles to have had a wife who was black. The Bible says that Noah curse his son for seeing Him naked. That curse was upon Him not His sons.. Yes Ham settled in the land of Egypt. Did that make him black or his wife black? Remember Ham settled in Egypt AFTER the flood. Before that where was he? All the Bible said is that he lived on the earth.. The land of Egypt was named after Ham's wife but was a dark skin part of some imagined curse or was it a variation God gave a people that lived in a part of the world where a dark skin would be a protection from the sun? But it is STILL a teaching of mormonism that a dark skin is a curse (BofA 1:26-27, 2 Nephi 5:21)

In this teaching mormonism continues their insistence that being Black is Ugly, that it is a curse, that those who are "cursed with a skin of darkness" are less worthy, an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety. Isn't that a prejudices? Isn't that the meaning of bigotry? And there it is written into a book that the LDS church calls the word of God!!! Today the NBA has denied a man the right to direct his own property (the LA Clippers) because he used racially bigoted language. How much more serious is it to use the racially charged language we find in the books mormonism calls scripture.. Are those we see today with a "skin of blackness" somehow less important to God or worthy of these prejudgments because of the color of their skin? God doesn't see it as any hindrance at all. The very first gentile recorded as being called into the Church was an Ethiopian Eunuch.. He didn't just hear the words of life but God by miraculous means brought Philip to him so God's words of life could be explained to him.. Why was he so important? I have no idea, but maybe it was to show up the bigotry and hatred that the black race would face in the years to come.. Maybe even to disprove the bigotry and hatred of Indians and Blacks that is still alive within mormonism.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

It is true that many a Christian church held that the black race were inferior the white race.. Since that time churches like the Southern Baptists have apologized for their history of bigotry and hate. Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate.. But what is this? Mormonism have their racism actually embedded into their scripture? Stating that priesthood was denied to a man because he was the offspring of Ham who is taught by an LDS apostles to have had a wife who was black. The Bible says that Noah curse his son for seeing Him naked. That curse was upon Him not His sons.. Yes Ham settled in the land of Egypt. Did that make him black or his wife black? Remember Ham settled in Egypt AFTER the flood. Before that where was he? All the Bible said is that he lived on the earth.. The land of Egypt was named after Ham's wife but was a dark skin part of some imagined curse or was it a variation God gave a people that lived in a part of the world where a dark skin would be a protection from the sun? But it is STILL a teaching of mormonism that a dark skin is a curse (BofA 1:26-27, 2 Nephi 5:21)

In this teaching mormonism continues their insistence that being Black is Ugly, that it is a curse, that those who are "cursed with a skin of darkness" are less worthy, an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety. Isn't that a prejudices? Isn't that the meaning of bigotry? And there it is written into a book that the LDS church calls the word of God!!! Today the NBA has denied a man the right to direct his own property (the LA Clippers) because he used racially bigoted language. How much more serious is it to use the racially charged language we find in the books mormonism calls scripture.. Are those we see today with a "skin of blackness" somehow less important to God or worthy of these prejudgments because of the color of their skin? God doesn't see it as any hindrance at all. The very first gentile recorded as being called into the Church was an Ethiopian Eunuch.. He didn't just hear the words of life but God by miraculous means brought Philip to him so God's words of life could be explained to him.. Why was he so important? I have no idea, but maybe it was to show up the bigotry and hatred that the black race would face in the years to come.. Maybe even to disprove the bigotry and hatred of Indians and Blacks that is still alive within mormonism.. IHS jim

Once again James---your post is basically half-truths and flat out falsehoods. I feel for you in the hereafter. If there was one thing that Christ was clear about is that he was repulsed by this type of behavior when he saw it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again James---your post is basically half-truths and flat out falsehoods. I feel for you in the hereafter. If there was one thing that Christ was clear about is that he was repulsed by this type of behavior when he saw it.

There were no half truth in what I said. There are no lies in saying that these comments are embedded in LDS scripture! I said that the LDS church has come out and apologized for it's exclusionary actions of the past. I salute them in doing so. I agree with you that Jesus is repulsed by racism.. But within the LDS church racism still exists. Not in their actions, so much anymore, but in their beliefs, their SCRIPTURES it still exists. How terrible is that? By calling the BofM the word of God, mormonism puts this terrible racism into the mouth of God!!! That racist behavior that is still displayed in the LDS church clearly visible in it's SCRIPTURE. I find that appalling, don't you? I can't believe that you agree with such statements. I don't believe for a second that you too are as racist as a church that would teach such horrible doctrines.. If I were to stand to deliver the same message that exists in LDS scripture in Fast and Testimony meeting the entire congregation would be so appalled I would be stopped and most likely ejected from the meeting.. And yet right in the LDS scripture it is taught that a skin of blackness is a curse placed of a people because of their sin!! THAT IS APPALLING! And Julie it is still in the BofM, it is still in the Book of Abraham!!!!! It is totally racist, it isn't of God it is the evil thoughts of men. It is divisionist. This one statement proves that the BofM and the BofA are false. It alone proves that the LDS church is not God's church but the instead it is the Great and abominable church of the Devil.. The BofM has been changed many times.. Over 3,000 times in fact. Why not take this GREAT SIN out of it, apologize for that continued sin and admit that much of the whole book was made up in the fertile mind of Joseph Smith.. Then realizing that Smith was a charlatan and move your church to a more Biblical doctrine that is inclusive of all peoples. One that teaches Jesus and salvation by God's grace though faith in Him.. It is clear that mormonism hasn't abandoned it's raciest past. One important step in the process of repentance taught by mormonism is to forsake the sin. Has mormonism forsaken the sin of racism? I have just shown that mormonism has kept their hateful racist statement IN THEIR SCRIPTURE. I can't believe that any thinking person could judge anyone because of the color of their skin, for good or for evil. And yet mormonism teaches just that in their scripture.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Julie I agree.. The racist behavior that is still displayed in the LDS church clearly visible in their SCRIPTURE is appalling.

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James.

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James.

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

I see you can't forget the past can you? I've not been on here for several months but had to come back because of your comment. You want to close a blind eye as to what was taught by your church all due to JS, and don't find it wrong that these areas are still within your Standard Works, then you are allowing the racism and bigotry to continue. Why haven't these areas that offend blacks not been removed totally from those books? If you continue with your belief in Mormonism, then you believe and accept these teachings. Do some serious thinking Julie.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;155753]Well, I was speaking of your behavior James.

Hey you want to compare this to my adultery, Ok lets do it.. If I continued to even look at dirty pictures, or talk to women in sexual ways, even if I didn't have personal sexual contact with them would you doubt my repentance? I WOULD! That is what mormonism is doing with racism. The give lip service to it's abandonment while still hold onto it in their scripture.. Do you really believe God ever used race as a punishment for sin.. How could a loving God hold a dark skin as a punishment for sin? Is that really the God you believe in?

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

Joseph Smith wrote the BofM and the BofA. As I said God would NEVER teach that a skin of Blackness is a punishment for evil, or be a sign to deny a person all the blessings of His Church. Joseph Smith, because of those facts was a bigoted as any white man of his day. If by condemning bigotry I reveal bigotry within me? I will continue then to be bigoted all my days.. I hold that not specking against a wrong make a person guilty of that wrong. It looks like you believe that speaking against a wrong makes a person guilty of that wrong. You make no sense!

Just where is my behavior bad in saying what I have in this post? You don't think that showing the deep seeded sin of mormonism is evil do you? Is it fine in your eyes to say that people have a dark skin because they have sin in their lives? If you have spoken of being married to a man of mixed race I missed it.. I was not aware of that and I say to that "SO WHAT". It would appear that the points I have made against the LDS church's racism through their scripture would make you think harder about the truth of mormonism. Your deep feeling for the truth of the church should certainly be rocked to make the realization that racism still exists in the scripture mormonism calls the word of God.. It is hard to bring anything out of the BofM other than what it teaches It says "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a Skin of Blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be oathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. And cursed shall be the seed of him that with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done." Look Julie you say that you are married to a man of mixed race.. The p***age also condemns you! That is the word of God? HARDLY!! That is nothing but EVIL.. If you accept these things as scripture and I don't believe that you do, you would be as evil as the LDS church is in it's ****able scriptures.

I guess you didn't read my entire post before you judged it.. I says this "Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate." I acknowledged the LDS church's repentance for their bigotry. What I am pointing out is their lack of forsakement of the sin of racism..

I can show you who the "prophet" addressed in teaching who and who may not hold the LDS priesthood. Where The sections of the D&C make it clear that it is God speaking this change begins "To Whom It May Concern" (Official Declaration 2). Even to Joseph F. Smith in section 138 he clearly states that He received his vision through the blessing of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Isn't it strange that in the Official Declaration 2 that Jesus isn't even mentioned? And I should believe that mormonism has abandon racism? I can't! I can't hear a word they are saying as their actions are screaming into my ears.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Hey you want to compare this to my adultery, Ok lets do it..

Your wife seemed so hurt by this last time we discussed it, I am surprised you keep bringing it up.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James.

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

Well at least your other half will be white and delightsome one day.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Well at least your other half will be white and delightsome one day.

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible.

That aint the way the early LDSinc. read into it. it was bout turning the red skins into white skins, and you know it!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

That aint the way the early LDSinc. read into it. it was bout turning the red skins into white skins, and you know it!

Such as Peter mistaking what Christ meant when he said "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

(Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.)

So, to you, if an apostle or a prophet doesn't understand what God teaches immediately or misunderstands, he is a false prophet. I don't agree. As we can see from the scriptures otherwise.

[alanmolstad]

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture.

Prophets on the other hand dont get to be wrong ...ever...
They actually do speak for God.

one error and a prophet is officially a "False Prophet" and should be put to death...or made to stand in a long line at walmart...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture.

Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Your wife seemed so hurt by this last time we discussed it, I am surprised you keep bringing it up.

You were the one that is keeping it going. You said, "Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ".. What else of my behavior could you possible be attacking? Though keep trying to tell everyone that I use half truth or down right lies you haven't shown any instance that I have done so.. As I read a p***age either from the Bible of one of the LDS books of scripture, I take it at it's face value. Word have meaning and I use the literal meaning given in a p***age as it's interpretation. I don't try to figure out what it means under the surface. In that I see no use of half truths or out right lies.. BUT if you have a different meaning for Skin of blackness other than a person having an abundance of melanin in their skin I would like to know what that is.. The p***age teaches that it was a mark of a curse God laid on the Lamanites.

I compared my sin and the LDS church's bigotry, That Bigotry can still be seen in the scriptures of the LDS church. My sin has been totally forsaken..Again isn't forsaking a sin an important step in the process of LDS repentance? yet there is is still big as life, part of the scriptures of the LDS church. Sounds like by the inaction of the LDS to remove their bigoted beliefs that a dark skin is still the sign of sin in a people. Since the LDS hold the BofM to be God's truth, they must still hold that that bigotry is God's truth.. Your attempt to change that subject is noted.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

Paul warned us to not just trust even his own words without putting all he said to the test of scripture.
If it is in agreement, we have no issues with it.
If the new message is different?...reject it...

That is what Paul said to do....and so that is all i can do...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture.

Prophets on the other hand dont get to be wrong ...ever...
They actually do speak for God.

one error and a prophet is officially a "False Prophet" and should be put to death...or made to stand in a long line at walmart...

This above is very important to keep in mind when people knock on our doors with a "message"
we are told to put their "message" to the test.

no matter who the person might claim to be, or where he might claim to have received his message from....
It does not matter, we still always test it by the bible

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible.

Nope, Not one of them referred to a believer becoming white and delightsome. If you believe that The LDS scriptures I have quoted mean that "A skin of Blackness" is a lack of purity then you are reading into your books things that just aren't there..

In the p***ages you have quoted there is not one word about the color of Skin. Yes it says that the Face of Jesus shone like the sun. But only His clothing was said to be white, Not Him.. There is nothing about the color of His skin.. Isaiah was taught that our sins would change and they would become white as wool. It wasn't the sinners color that changed but it was the sins.. I guess in the Bible skin color is unimportant, as it should be in mormonism but sadly it is important because Joseph Smith says so.. Not because it is the way of God.. God sees the heart, He doesn't look on the outside of the bowl He looks to see if the inside is clean.. No Skin of Blackness to point out sin of a people.. God knows what they are long before they were ever born.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

is that what the LDS teach? That what Paul recorded that is included in the Bible are his words? And you dare say that the Bible is the word of God as long as the translation is correct? If the writings of Paul are part of the Bible, and they are included as such in the LDS editions of the KJV, as well as the JSP, then you call them Paul's writings? They are the words Paul used to tell us how God, the Holy Spirit is to direct His Church. Paul's epistles that appear in the Bible are as much the word of God as are the first 5 books of the OT.. The Holy Spirit directed Moses to write what we have there just as much as He directed Paul to write the the epistle to the Romans..

How does this change the FACT that the BofM teaches that a Skin of Blackness is the indication that such are an Idle people, full of Mischief and Subtlety? teaching that is clearly bigotry and if there was a believing mormon that was an owner of an NBA team they could be seen as being just as evil in what they believe of Black people as is Donald Sterling.. They would deserve the same treatment he has received for making his nasty racial comments..

I can see that the truth of this is really bothering you Julie. May God use it to show you real truth. The truth that God is just and not a raging bigot.. Skin color is meaningless to Him. All he demands is when we stand before Him, whether we are white, black, brown, green, blue, or poka dotted, He sees the righteousness of His Son in us.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

is that what the LDS teach? That what Paul recorded that is included in the Bible are his words?

No, I am repeating what Alan said--he said:

Paul warned us to not just trust even his own words without putting all he said to the test of scripture.

But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

[alanmolstad]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155847]

No, I am repeating what Alan said--he said:

But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

You and I are to test what we have that is new and untested, by what we have already .

So Paul told us to test all things by what we have already...for (as we all know by now), the FAITH was ONCE for all given....

Thus, when a guy knocks on my door I take his teachings that test them by the bible.
The things that agree, I got no issues with.
The things that are different I reject.....as we are taught

[James Banta]

[QUOTE][BigJulie;155847]

No, I am repeating what Alan said

No you are putting down what the Holy Spirit said through the Apostle.. The proper quote is:

Gal 1:8-9 (The Holy Spirit said it twice, it was so important)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That is what Alan was saying.. You are mistaken..

The Holy Spirit included Paul in that teaching.. If anyone, Paul included, preaches anything other than what was once delivered to the saints they are accursed. If Paul would have returned saying "Oh what I said before was wrong, here is the real true..." He would be accursed.. But Paul never did that, he spoke the word with Power and Authority, and Jesus was always the center of that message.. Paul never said that he had done a greater work than any of the Apostles or even Jesus. Everything He did he credited to the Lord..

But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

The message that came through Paul agreed 100% with the Scripture, 100%. You do know that there was scripture before the Pauline epistles were written don't you? On this side of the cross prophets no longer spoke for God to the people. While the gift of prophecy still exists, God message to His people, the Church, is complete..

Hebrew 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Again your words make you sound like you deny the very God breathed words we have in the Bible.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=alanmolstad;155849]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You and I are to test what we have that is new and untested, by what we have already .

So Paul told us to test all things by what we have already...for (as we all know by now), the FAITH was ONCE for all given....

Thus, when a guy knocks on my door I take his teachings that test them by the bible.
The things that agree, I got no issues with.
The things that are different I reject.....as we are taught

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155892]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

Huh, what?

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155892]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

Christian Faith is that Jesus is God, That in His body He bore all our sins and offers Life to all who trust Him.. That is Christian faith. Yes we are taught that by the word He has preserved for us but we trust Him knowing that He sent His Apostles to teach all peoples because they believed Him, the Church grew. It was all based on faith in Jesus not on the words of mere men.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Christian Faith is that Jesus is God, That in His body He bore all our sins and offers Life to all who trust Him.. That is Christian faith. Yes we are taught that by the word He has preserved for us but we trust Him knowing that He sent His Apostles to teach all peoples because they believed Him, the Church grew. It was all based on faith in Jesus not on the words of mere men.. IHS jim

The problem is, if a Pharisee used the test that Alan gave, without the guidance of the Holy Ghost (just what they already know and is congruent with what they already believe), he could not believe in Jesus Christ--which is exactly what happened. Therefore, Alan's test does not work.

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.