Mormonism is claiming they have set aside their Bigotry

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Show me even one of my posts that state that I "confessed" I believe in "three Gods"---even one. Cut and paste my thread that states this. If you can't, you are bearing false witness. Go, search this forum. Find it.

If you can't---then apologize to me and confess to this forum that you have born false witness against me.

Are you LDS? Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Do you believe that he taught false doctrine about the nature of God? Do you support his statements he made about God in his history and over the pulpit as he taught the church? Did he ever in any forum teach false doctrine about the nature of God?

If you are LDS, if you believe that Smith was a prophet who NEVER taught falsely about God or any other doctrine then you do believe that there are three Gods.. All you have to do to show that I am lying about you is to say that you don't believe in the first vision or that in official gathering of his church Smith taught false doctrines.. GO FOR IT.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yeah, I agree---but that is not what James is doing.

And what you have been doing is respectful? Calling MY HUSBAND a liar, and bearing false witness? Why do you ignore what I post? Seems all you want is attention from the men on this site. You fail every time you post and fail to do any research to prove that what my husband has posted is true or not. Again I say that you fail to even read most of what he posts or that you have some kind of brain dysfunction that keeps you from comprehending the written word; which is it? Keep walking around with your eyes closed listening to the falsehoods of Mormonism especially when things have been shown you straight from JS, or other self proclaimed prophets of your church. What do you really believe Julie?

The ball is in your court. It is up to YOU to prove James wrong and I haven't seen you even try. WHY Julie? It's so easy to keep throwing out there, that James is a liar and is bearing false witness but since your faith is the one in the hot seat, it is up to you to defend it or deny it. I wait to see something.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Are you LDS? Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Do you believe that he taught false doctrine about the nature of God? Do you support his statements he made about God in his history and over the pulpit as he taught the church? Did he ever in any forum teach false doctrine about the nature of God?

If you are LDS, if you believe that Smith was a prophet who NEVER taught falsely about God or any other doctrine then you do believe that there are three Gods.. All you have to do to show that I am lying about you is to say that you don't believe in the first vision or that in official gathering of his church Smith taught false doctrines.. GO FOR IT.. IHS jim

In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this:

after all in 1829 Smith believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Ghost) is one God (See the testimony of the three witnesses and 2 Nephi 31:21

...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads

" And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.

[BigJulie]

Proverbs 6:16-19

King James Version (KJV)


16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

I think this pretty much sums up your time here on WM James (other than shedding innocent blood.)

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this: ...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.

What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM. It doesn't teach multiple gods, nor temple marriage nor becoming a god nor progression of spirits in heaven nor pre-existence. There is one thing the BoM teaches and that is, "you are saved after ALL you can do". So, spin things anyway you want for you are only fighting a battle that you can't win. Do you agree to every thing JS taught? If he spoke to the members during his life time, were those things NOT to be accepted as truth? Julie, you know so little about your own church history and this line of accusations against MY HUSBAND is wrong and YOU ARE THE ONE GUILTY OF BEARING FALSE WITNESS AND LYING!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM.

And this is the one reason that you are your husband James will never accurately be able to portray my faith. You believe my scriptures and my doctrine are two separate things. You are wrong.

But thanks for at least admitting that you cannot find and will not ever be able to prove your accusations using our scriptures.

Oh, and I know quite a bit about our history. I don't think you know that much about your history. The truth is, this is why I claim your hypocrisy in the matter. You set a standard for my beliefs that you do not make with yourself.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;156460]In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

Are you saying that Joseph Smith over the pulpit taught false doctrine? I will apologize if you can tell me that Smith lied about there being 3 Gods. I will apologize if you tell me, and the world that he was teaching false doctrine when he said that there are three Gods. That you are one of those that can contradict his insistence that there are three. Admit that he lied about being a polygamist insisting that he only had one wife.. That he lied about never telling the story of the first vision any other way than how it is recorded in the PofGP.. In short admit that he was as big of a liar as you believe I am.. Oh and you have to tell your bishop these thing the next time you need to go in for a annual temple recommend interview. If you can get to the stake president after that interview tell him too.. I am sure your temple attendance days will be over..

In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this: ...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

If Smith was a false prophet then the BofM is just as much part of his lie as anything else he said.. If he lied to the church about his polygamy, about who God is then how can you trust the BofM or any of the unique mormon scripture? You can't, because a liar wrote them!

The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.

By insisting that the founder of the LDS church didn't teach that there are three Gods, even after being shown where that is stated in your own church history. You are the one that needs to take care of falling into condemnation of 2 Nephi 9:34. I ask you to either believe what Smith taught each and every time he stood up to teach the church whether that be in the LDS scripture he wrote or in his recorded sermons. I am not asking that every word he ever spoke to be used as scripture, Not at all just those he spoke when teaching and preaching to the church. If you can't do that I say that you are in denial, You deny that he was a prophet and that anything he said is subject to being as false as the story of his first vision.. After all the official version is much different to that which was recorded in his own handwriting.. You aren't s t u p i d. You know that these things are there for all to see and read. You know that Smith taught such things.. It's all right there.. If he is a prophet then he wouldn't teach error as basic as to what the nature of God is and yet there it is.. He did just that..

This is your burden.. You have to either show that Smith didn't say these things or you have to reject him, that is if you are willing to agree with him that there are three Gods. That it is right to live in polygamy, and to try to keep that SIN secret from the church and even his own wife. Remember that the 132nd section of the D&C that the first wife must be asked to accept that kind of marriage and a man isn't free to do so until she is given the opportunity to accept it as God's form of marriage (D&C 132:65). All LDS that claim Smith to be a prophet of God must deal with these issues.. YOU HAVEN'T DONE SO.. You want it both ways, he is a prophet but he is just a man too so that he can live in sin, and lie while he is teaching the church and still be a man of God.. Guess what NO ONE CAN DO THAT , NO ONE! IHS jim

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence, Phoenix? Is the "we" a general we, or do you mean the LDS Church?

Not sure which post you are asking about, but "we" is usually used generally speaking. Do you remember which post or the context? I do not want to misunderstood.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Are you saying that Joseph Smith over the pulpit taught false doctrine?

I am saying that if you can't comprehend what Joseph Smith taught over the pulpit in such a way that you can back it with our scriptures, than you don't understand fully what Joseph Smith taught.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Calvinism is a "man-made" idea....That while it may be made up of bad conclusions of a few Christians, they are still conclusions that do not effect one way or the other the salvation of a person.
Calvinism is a crashed idea that makes a person's witness less strong.
But no one ever landed in Hell over the question.

In fact, the open and honest dis-unity seen within the Body of Christ over the question of Calvinism is what many (in the world of the CULTS)wish they had within their own religion.

People in the CULTS must look at the way Christians are so free to openly disagree with even their own church's leadership based on our freedom of thought, that they got to think of their own religion as being in need of the fresh air running though the debates between Christians.

So there is no harm at all in the different voices heard speaking out on Calvinism within the Christian church....


Mormonism is way more serious.
Mormonism is a man-made idea that feeds into the lies of Satan and will cause "****ation".


.

This is true, it is a recipe that was created by Satan and cooked up in Hell's Kitchen.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

Not sure which post you are asking about, but "we" is usually used generally speaking. Do you remember which post or the context? I do not want to misunderstood.

Sorry, I should have quoted you.

It was this one:

Here is how I have found this idea gets sticks.

Denominations do not matter, until you disagree in debate, more importantly apologetics. Then the many denominations are no longer one Church.

People can say what they like, but when it comes to a "unity of Faith", we have down, we have made it a science.

I didn't quite get the meaning of that last sentence.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

This is true, it is a recipe that was created by Satan and cooked up in Hell's Kitchen.

Do you think you can back up that claim? Or are you simply repeating something that you overheard and ran with it?

Let's start with this one. Can you tell me what this means from a Mormon perspective?

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And this is the one reason that you are your husband James will never accurately be able to portray my faith. You believe my scriptures and my doctrine are two separate things. You are wrong.

But thanks for at least admitting that you cannot find and will not ever be able to prove your accusations using our scriptures.

Oh, and I know quite a bit about our history. I don't think you know that much about your history. The truth is, this is why I claim your hypocrisy in the matter. You set a standard for my beliefs that you do not make with yourself.

More false accusations? When did I EVER admit that I could not find and was not able to prove the truths James and I both have posted about Mormonism and not using your scriptures. Unfortunately you are wrong because what is written within your standard works tells the world and you what your believe, so is that not doctrine? There is one thing in your BoM that says, "The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God". (11 Nephi 31:21) Then you must add the little snippet to say, "in purpose." This had to be done in order to make everything else make sense and follow the doctrines of your church. What is written in the Bible, the words of Christ are scripture but is also doctrine for Christians, it teaches the world what Christians believe, so is this not both scripture and doctrine? I have to say YES! The two go hand in hand Julie. Your logic is flawed so bad, it's not funny. Your church ignores that one VERY important part of the BoM. So I again say that it does not teach your doctrines as the Bible teaches mine.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am saying that if you can't comprehend what Joseph Smith taught over the pulpit in such a way that you can back it with our scriptures, than you don't understand fully what Joseph Smith taught.

But you are ***uming that Joseph and Brigham actually agreed with your own scriptures. In many instances this is not the case.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you are ***uming that Joseph and Brigham actually agreed with your own scriptures. In many instances this is not the case.

With the scriptures that were revealed to them? Those ones?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

With the scriptures that were revealed to them? Those ones?

I am saying that Joseph and Brigham taught a lot of things that were not in your own scriptures.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am saying that Joseph and Brigham taught a lot of things that were not in your own scriptures.

So, do you think that what they taught was congruent with what was revealed to them through God or not?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

More false accusations? When did I EVER admit that I could not find and was not able to prove the truths James and I both have posted about Mormonism and not using your scriptures.

Your exact words:

Originally Posted by neverending

What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM.

But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.

(For those who don't know---BOM is her way of saying Book of Mormon)

Okay ---how reliable do you think someone is regarding Mormonism who claims that there is " no Mormon doctrine" in the Book of Mormon?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Your exact words:


But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.

Where in the Book of Mormon is the temple endowment mention?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, do you think that what they taught was congruent with what was revealed to them through God or not?

Certainly not consistent with what the Bible teaches, but since you mean lds scriptures in many cases they were not in agreement.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Certainly not consistent with what the Bible teaches, but since you mean lds scriptures in many cases they were not in agreement.

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.

It is like claiming that you have seen a tusk and therefore claim to understand the elephant when you yourself acknowledge that the one does not appear "in agreement" with the other.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.

BigJ I was LDS and know your history. Bottom line is that Joseph and Brigham occasionally taught things that were not consistent with lds standard works.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.

It is like claiming that you have seen a tusk and therefore claim to understand the elephant when you yourself acknowledge that the one does not appear "in agreement" with the other.

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness.. We all know the doctrine of mormonism here.. We know that your god is a glorified man, He BECAME a God through His own obedience to laws and ordinances.. Your God changes in what He can or will do.. Nephi knew that if God gave a commandment God would make obedience to keep the commandment.. He was able to walk into Jerusalem and recover the br*** plates.. But later mere men of the Missouri mobs were able to make God take back his commandment to build the Temple in Far West.. Guess He forgot how to make it possible to keep His commandments..

The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting.. His salvation is given to those whom He will according to His grace and knowledge based on who has or will have Faith in the Jesus of the Bible.. Jesus speaking of the Father said that He is Spirit.. He also told us that a spirit doesn't have a flesh and bone body. The Holy Spirit reveal through Paul that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. But the LDS seems to believe that the Father has a body as tangible as man's. I have seen you belittle the teaching that Jesus was made to be sin so that we can be made the Righteousness of God in Him.. You must believe the BofA that teaches Gods but deny the scripture that teaches that the Lord our God is one Lord..

This is when you faith in Smith is threatened you attack those that come with the message, a message you can see so clearly. The Bible doesn't support mormonism. Not even in the person of Jesus. Never is He called our heavenly elder brother, but He is call the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Your exact words:


But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.

(For those who don't know---BOM is her way of saying Book of Mormon)

Okay ---how reliable do you think someone is regarding Mormonism who claims that there is " no Mormon doctrine" in the Book of Mormon?

NOW HEAR THIS!! THERE IS NO LDS DOCTRINES WITHIN THE BoM! Julie, does your BoM teach that people must be married in a temple to gain exaltation, or married in a temple at all? What about priesthood? Does it teach baptism for the dead? Does it teach polygamy, it actually TAUGHT AGAINST IT!! Does it teach that God was once a man, or that Jesus is our elder brother & the spirit brother of Satan? That Jesus wasn't always God? Doesn't teach 3 degrees of heaven, nor progression nor pre-existence. Seems to me that if anyone were wanting to know the doctrines taught by the LDS, reading the BoM will not do it, nope in order to really find out what the LDS doctrines are you'd have to read the D&C and the PoGP.

I find the LDS Church deceptive in the way it sends children out into their mission field, hand out their BoM telling people who show interest in their church to read it and pray about it and yet, this book is fiction and doesn't tell anyone what the LDS believe. If one wants to know the real meat of Mormonism again they'd have to go to the D&C and PoGP. Really sad, like the Jehovah Witnesses with their own Bible (Green Dragon). They too are deceptive. A cult will always show itself sooner or later with many being fooled. The Apostle Paul warned Christians of his day against those who preach ANOTHER gospel.....Mormonism is just that

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]NOW HEAR THIS!! THERE IS NO LDS DOCTRINES WITHIN THE BoM!

And so you don't believe you can back your comments with our scriptures--as you believe our doctrines are not there, right? That is my point. If you don't see anything Joseph Smith teachings in light of truths revealed to Him, you don't understand our doctrines. As I said to Billyray, it is like coming across a tusk and thinking you know the elephant. And you don't. If you want--teach our doctrines USING our scriptures--then you will know you are teaching what we believe.