Free Will

[Billyray]

Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.

[alanmolstad]

you had a nice dictionary you were quoting the other day.......quote it again now...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you had a nice dictionary you were quoting the other day.......quote it again now...

Merriam Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

[Billyray]

What about sin nature. Do you think that this limits complete "free will"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about sin nature. Do you think that this limits complete "free will"?

we hear many voices whispering im sure....but in the end we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...

free will means that we are not under the control of others...things feelings or people

but free will does not mean "error free"

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we hear many voices whispering im sure....but in the end we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...

free will means that we are not under the control of others...things feelings or people

but free will does not mean "error free"

What do you think THIS p***age means?

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

And how do you understand THIS one?

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

In the light of those two p***ages, do you STILL want to claim 'we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...?'

GOD CHOSE US, we did not choose Him

According to the BIBLE GOD chose us a LONG TIME before we were even born!
Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the secular claim that we all have 'free will' to choose to do whatever we want.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

What do you think THIS p***age means?

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

]

it points to the verse - Romans 1:20

Is the universe still spinning?
Is the earth still here?

If so, then you are hearing the call.......for the Universe never stops declaring the nature of God to you.

[Christian]

alan posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianWhat do you think THIS p***age means?

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

it points to the verse - Romans 1:20

Is the universe still spinning?
Is the earth still here?

Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
NKJV

Yep, there those who 'know' God and their hearts are darkened. NOTHING IN THE TEXT says they are 'free willed' to 'choose God' WITHOUT HIM FIRST DRAWING THEM to Himself.

If so, then you are hearing the call.......for the Universe never stops declaring the nature of God to you.

I received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord over 40 years ago. . .I don't have to depend upon nature alone. . .I have HIS WORD and HIS HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN ME. . .MUCH BETTER!

So where is your scripture that says anyone has the 'free will' to choose God on his own?

So far you have found none.

[Libby]

So where is your scripture that says anyone has the 'free will' to choose God on his own?

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest".

God gently draws us to Him, but then we must have the "faith" to accept His calling.

I hope you will watch the videos, as well, Christian. Dr. Geisler puts it so simply and absolutely according to scripture.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Libby

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest".

God gently draws us to Him, but then we must have the "faith" to accept His calling.

I hope you will watch the videos, as well, Christian. Dr. Geisler puts it so simply and absolutely according to scripture.

And FAITH is a GIFT FROM GOD, not something you can conjure up from within yourself. You CANNOT DECIDE willy-nilly to receive Jesus as your Savior IF you are a vessel molded by the maker for dishonorable use. IF God did not CHOOSE YOU before the beginnings of the world, you will end up (as most people will) in hell.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

[B]

And how do you understand THIS one?

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

[B

Walter Martin talked about this in that one recording I posted the link to called "Martin Under Fire
the idea is that we come to the joys of salvation via our own decision....and when we enter into it we see a sign above the door in God's hand, "You did not choose me, I chose you"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

[B][COLOR=#008000]In the light of those two p***ages, do you STILL want to claim 'we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...?'

]

yes,,,,
God is not so weak that he has to first rob the person of their own Free Will just to carry out his will in their life!

That would be a silly type of god to trust...a god who gets nervous at the gifts he has given.....LOL
"Oh no, I gave them all Free Will and now they are stronger than I am!...What shall I ever do?"

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes,,,,
God is not so weak that he has to first rob the person of their own Free Will just to carry out his will in their life!

That would be a silly type of god to trust...a god who gets nervous at the gifts he has given.....LOL
"Oh no, I gave them all Free Will and now they are stronger than I am!...What shall I ever do?"

That says ANY MAN has a 'free will' to choose God or not to choose him of one's own volition. I'll bet you cannot find ONE.

However I CAN show you scripture that says you are either a slave to sin, or to righteousness.

That CHRISTIANS were bought with a price and are no longer owned by satan.

So SHOW ME THE P***AGE that teaches the manmade theory that you have 'free will. . .'

You don't even have the 'free will' to disobey your spouse whenever you would like!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...out-Free-Will/

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...out-Free-Will/

Let's go to the first verse given on your link and see what it says.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In verse 8 what is "this" referring to?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...out-Free-Will/

Here is the second verse given in your link

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

This is certainly true that if a man doesn't believe in Christ and know that He is God then he will die in his sins. Let's look down a few verses to see what else Christ said to these guys.

Joh 8
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,
40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Alan if anything this section of scripture teaches against "free will".

Why didn't these guys hear the words of God?"

[alanmolstad]

the word "if" is what stands out....

[alanmolstad]

free will give people all kinds of reasons for doing all kinds of things....

That is part of it's charm.....LOL

[Libby]

Billy - Why didn't these guys hear the words of God?"

Scripture says, "The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

But, it seems that the reasons they are not hearing God, at a particular time, could be many. They are not of God...yes....but, does that, necessarily, mean they "never" will be? Perhaps, for "some", it was not their time...they were not ready?

In Bible study, last night, we were studying Acts 14, about the Gentiles and circumcision. James (brother of Jesus) was mentioned in that chapter as being one of the Christians involved in making a decision about circumcision in the church. For some reason (can't remember how it came up) my teacher mentioned that James was not likely a believer, at the time of the crucifixion, because Christ handed over support of his mother to John, rather than his brother James. She said, many followers were not true believers until after the Resurrection. So, these verses you brought up made me think of that...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Scripture says, "The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

But, it seems that the reasons they are not hearing God, at a particular time, could be many. They are not of God...yes....but, does that, necessarily, mean they "never" will be? Perhaps, for "some", it was not their time...they were not ready?

You are correct. A person who is elect is not born regenerated and thus until that time comes they are unregenerate sinners who follow after their own sinful ways and they are unable to even hear the words of God. This is best illustrated in Ephesians 2

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in the tresp***es and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3 among whom we all once lived in the p***ions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

[alanmolstad]

as long as they still have their free will, there is the fully opportunity to come to the Lord...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as long as they still have their free will, there is the fully opportunity to come to the Lord...

They will always have a choice but unless a person is drawn by the Father to Christ--that person is unable to come to Him.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as long as they still have their free will, there is the fully opportunity to come to the Lord...

My Bible never says that. SHOW ME THE P***AGE THAT YOU THINK DOES. . .

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

My Bible never says that. SHOW ME THE P***AGE THAT YOU THINK DOES. . .

http://biblehub.com/matthew/23-37.htm


Jesus cries over the city, and says they "would not" come to him,,,,this shows that the people could have and yet decided on their own not to.

Had Jesus said "could not" then this would have taught that people dont always have free will, and that they cant decide to come to the Lord on their own.


The moment Jesus said, "would not" it shows us that as long as you had free will there was nothing stopping you from coming to the Lord...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are correct. A person who is elect is not born regenerated and thus until that time comes they are unregenerate sinners who follow after their own sinful ways and they are unable to even hear the words of God. This is best illustrated in Ephesians 2

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in the tresp***es and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3 among whom we all once lived in the p***ions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Yes, agreed.

That bring us back to the question of whom God draws (all or some?)...and how that gets decided/worked out....which is for the other thread, I guess..