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Thread: Free Will

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    billy....
    if you have a question i will be glad to have a look at it.

    if there was a post of mine you callninto question?... just show me it and i will have a look.

    if there is a bible verse you want to talk about?... list it.



    i will be happy to answer all your questions.....in about un.....17 hours ornso.....LOL

  2. #27
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

    will - means you thinking mind
    I believe that those who are not elect willingly choose to reject Christ and that they don't feel forced to do so. Would you say that this is "free will" by your definition?

  3. #28
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I believe that those who are not elect willingly choose to reject Christ and that they don't feel forced to do so. Would you say that this is "free will" by your definition?
    feel?..............

    if you decide to rob a bank you can be found guilty.

    but if i strap a bomb to you and tell you to go rob the bank or i will **** you up you will not be found guilty.

    the difference is free will.......

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    so free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice.

    even my dog and cat can do that.


    its about the freedom to choise and not being forced to decide one thing over the other.

    free to decide.....free to make up your own mind....freedom to change your mind too.....freedom to repent.....nothing set in stone.....

  5. #30
    alanmolstad
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    so free willnis not jusst the ability to make a choice......but that is part of it.


    and free will is not just about feelings......but that is connected to it.


    but its about being truly free of will.
    to be truly free of force......to not be bound.....not just to feel free. but to truly be free.

  6. #31
    alanmolstad
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    errors isnwording due to im on phone....

  7. #32
    alanmolstad
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    feelings can lie to us.....

    a slave can become convinced he is free by his feelings.

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    free will gives us the ability to love

  9. #34
    alanmolstad
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    ok, I'm on my computer now.....
    Smart phones help us do many things...but not see text with old eyes, not type with old fingers....
    so I did not really have a good idea what the flow of the conversation was.

    I will now drop back and read whats been going on and respond where helpful.

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    ..."dead in sin"....
    We use this term alot, but we seem to add to the meaning things that are not true.

    Dead" in this case does not mean "dead-dead"
    You are separated from where you should be, but you are not beyond hope or redemption.

    Its like when they say "Faith without works is dead"...its not that your faith is dead...its not that you somehow lost your salvation.

    But it does mean that you are separated from where you should be....

    If you should be active and you are lazy, then your faith may be said to be "dead' but you are still saved.....

    its just that your testimony is not where it should be....
    The "light" that you are to be, is hidden under a basket.

  11. #36
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't consider God's "drawing" a Divine intervention, exactly. I see it as more of an enticement...but not one that we cannot reject, if we choose.
    yes!

    all men are drawn to Christ.
    The very universe is said to show God's nature to us, so there is no one on the earth that has ever lived that can say "God never drew me"

    as long as the sun is burning, the world is turning, the birds are cherping, and the sea is....um..seaing. the things that are made by the creator do preach to us about the creator.

    I like to define the word "draw" in this situation as meaning, "To attract"

    Like a boy who wants to "attract' the attention of a nice girl...

  12. #37
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    Alan was so hot on this topic on the other thread I expected a more vigorous response from him but thus far I haven't seen it yet. I am still waiting for him to settle on a definition so I can get a better grasp on what he really believes. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.
    ......"Alan" has one or two other things going on here.....



    But Im going over all the posts now....and I look forward to how you screw-up what Im saying ....

  13. #38
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If that is the case then you can see why using the term "free will" means something different for different people and until we can agree on a definition--even just for this thread--we don't really have a good understanding of what each person means when they use the word "free will".

    ?
    I have written miles and miles of text on this forum addressing the meaning and correct use of the term "Free Will"
    I doubt I can improve on what i have already made as clear as I can....time after time....

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    so a lot of people that dont like the term "Free Will" have a way they use to get around it's use by saying that people just "feel" free.....

    They admit that people sure feel they were not forced to do stuff...
    But what they then leave off is that the people might have felt things that were not true at all.

    But I have to object to this whole line of arguement.
    If you are thinking that people just "feel" free, and just "feel" they have Free Will, but really they dont, then you are not talking about real Free Will at all.

    You are describing a lie....or a self-lie.....or a delusion.....or a self-delusion.

    NONE of these things can be true!


    if we were designed by God to just "feel" free,...to just "feel' that we had Free Will, then our God is a big fat lie.....and evil.
    For he designed us with built-in delusions , and that would point the finger of sin into his corner.
    God would be guilty of creating a person who has a built-in design flaw that is the cause of all people believeing a lie, just to make god look good.

    i would not worship a god like that.



    So this means that I totally reject the idea that we just "feel" free....

    I totally reject the idea that human free will is just a delusion.


    Human Free Will is REAL!

    God gave man the ability to make free decisions...real decisions....Not fake real-looking decisions...But real TRUE decisions that are free from being forced.

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    sure...now that im up...now that Im posting answers to questions, now that I can have a real conversation with people...now no one else is even on-line?


    I have to go to work in an hour...
    So Billy, dont ***ume that because i dont post for the next 17 hours that im not interested in responding.
    Im just busy.....




    Now if you have a bunch of questions for me to answer, then post them.
    i will be happy to have a look at them whehn I get home from work.

    If you have any bible verses that you think prove man dont have free will, then post them and I will go over them and show you how they do prove we have free will.

    If you want me to go over the John 6 stuff again?...let me know...

    or the sections in Romans you listed before?...let me know.

    Although I might have a house full of visiting guests this weekend, I will do my best to answer any and all questions you got.

  16. #41
    alanmolstad
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    Like I have talked about before, I attended a Bible School when i was a lot younger.
    And dealing with the question of man's Free Will was a large block of time that I was there in School.
    I was in a cl*** of some very militant Calvinists, and so i have heard every argument several times over......and over...LOL

    In the end I had to stand in front of the cl*** and give my thoughts on the topic.
    The conclusion I came to, I would learn years and years later was about the same position that Dr Walter Martin taught.
    That conclusion is that "man has Free Will, and god is Sovereign"

    man has real Free Will..... Not fake free will.....not real-looking free will......not real-feeling free will......

    but Real Free Will....

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    So Billy, is there any question about how I define Free Will?

    In the past I have gotten a Calvinist to say to me that "Man has free Will" but then the person went on to re-define the term and gut it of its meanings.

    The Calvinist twisted the definition to mean "the ability to make a choice"....of perceptions of freedom, of "agency"......of this,... of that...of lots of things , but not what the dictionary was saying to him about the term.


    So in other words - he had stripped the term of the whole concept of being "free"....
    The lack of any form of Free, open and "independent" thought in decision making made their agreement that man had Free Will a moot point.

    No one is truly free if they are only under a delusion of being free.
    No one is truly making a "choice" if they are being forced to make only one decision over the other.

    So it does not matter is a person "willingly" decided to make a choice, if the reality of the situation was that they did not have real Free Will >

    This is because the fact that a person can "willingly" do many things if they suffer under a delusion and do not have real Free Will.

    So when we talk about man having "Free Will" we should make sure we are not just talking about perceptions.
    We should always maintain the term to be addressing the very REAL "Free Will"

    Not the fake, not the feeling, not the delusion!

    Only the REAL Free Will is Free Will.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-07-2014 at 05:18 AM.

  18. #43
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So Billy, is there any question about how I define Free Will?
    Yea. I still am not clear on how you are defining "free will". Can you give me a one line succinct definition for me?

    Merriam Webster Dictionary

    FREE WILL
    1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
    2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

    Do you agree with the above dictionary definition? If not could you modify it so I have an idea of how you are using this word.

  19. #44
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In the past I have gotten a Calvinist to say to me that "Man has free Will" but then the person went on to re-define the term and gut it of its meanings.
    But that is exactly what I am accusing you of doing. In fact that is why I started this thread to get a clear definition from you (and others) so that I know what you mean when you are using this term. If you are in agreement with the dictionary definition then we could proceed with our discussion

  20. #45
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But that is exactly what I am accusing you of doing. In fact that is why I started this thread to get a clear definition from you (and others) so that I know what you mean when you are using this term. If you are in agreement with the dictionary definition then we could proceed with our discussion
    It is strange Billy, Alan teaches that all men are God's and yet the Bible tells us that all that the Father has He gives to Jesus and Jesus never casts them out. So what can we do here.. The Bible can support Calvinism or Arminianism, We should be able to set these small issues aside and be One in Christ.. One in Christ to defend the faith agaist all who would prevert it, namely mormonism.. IHS jim

  21. #46
    Libby
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    I've never seen Alan say that "all men belong to God".

    He has said (as I have) that God "draws all men". Some will respond, some will not.

  22. #47
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I've never seen Alan say that "all men belong to God".

    He has said (as I have) that God "draws all men". Some will respond, some will not.
    I think you mentioned this in the other thread but do you believe that the Father "draws all men" to Christ when you say that God "draws all men"?

  23. #48
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I think you mentioned this in the other thread but do you believe that the Father "draws all men" to Christ when you say that God "draws all men"?
    Yes, to Christ.

  24. #49
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, to Christ.
    Since I would like to keep this thread about "free will" since this is a hot item topic with Alan and I still haven't got a concise definition from him, I will start a new thread about God drawing some verse all men to Christ because this is a very interesting topic.

  25. #50
    Libby
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    Okay.

    Billy...it's "versus".

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