Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And from your point of view nobody can respond until God changes them in some way. Prior to that they are unable to do so. BTW we both agree that people do not have the free will to come to God until God changes them and allows them to do so.

I don't think "changes" is the proper word. If you notice, even in Ephesians 2:8, "faith" comes first, then regeneration. God draws us by his grace, through "faith" (our faith, our acceptance of his gift) and THEN, we will be saved (regenerated).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know Norm Geisler in fact he has a pretty good book that I read several years ago ***led "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist". I will take a look at his video later today and get back with you.

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

"This" is salvation, which is absolutely by His grace and His doing, but we must "accept" that gift by putting our faith in Him.

[alanmolstad]

where?....here is where...

If you asked me to flap my arms and fly I would fail.
its not that I refused to try, for I would be able to try to flap my arms hard enough to fly....but no matter how hard I try I will fail.
What is the reason?

The reason is that I cant.....

On the other hand if you asked me to wash the car and I don't it is because I refused to go wash the car.
It's not that I cant wash a car, for I can wash a car easy.

But if you ask me to wash the car and the car never gets washed you can therefore know that while I was "able"to wash the car, I simply refused to go wash it.


In the same way- Jesus wept over the people of the city that failed to come to Him.
he wept because the people "would not" come to Him........

"Would not" has a different meaning than "could not"

Had Jesus said that the people "could not" come to him it would have meant that the people had no Free Will, and that from the beginning of time the people were doomed to be unable of choosing to come to God .


Thus the moment Jesus said "would not" it meant that the future was not set, that the people had the free will they needed to turn and come to Christ right now, and that their failure was only do to the people refusing to come rather than being "unable" to come.

So this is how we know that men have the free will needed to turn and come to Christ right now without needing anything to happen before they do.

[Libby]

Here is a handy chart that shows the basic differences between the Calvinist view of salvation and the Arminian view. Specific to this thread would be the first item (Human Ability).

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/re...parison-chart/

Arminian Position

Free Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s ***istance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.

Calvinist Position

Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not — indeed he cannot — choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s ***istance to bring a sinner to Christ — it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation— it is God’s gift to the
sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

1 Cor 2:13-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

check out 3:30 of the video for your answers...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

confused alan posted:

.....

Well thats fine,,,,,now Im going to ask you a question too...

What is the difference between "would not" and "could not"?

[Libby]

This #3 video was especially interesting, Alan. I loved the way he went through Genesis (the Garden Story) and explains why we are still in the image of God (just slightly distorted/defaced due to sin).

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

This #3 video was especially interesting, Alan. I loved the way he went through Genesis (the Garden Story) and explains why we are still in the image of God (just slightly distorted/defaced due to sin).

I plan to listen to all of them back-to-back as I cut the gr*** in the lawn....
It helps p*** the time, and is a fun way to learn while there is nothing else I could be going anyway while I drive the mower around.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I plan to listen to all of them back-to-back as I cut the gr*** in the lawn....
It helps p*** the time, and is a fun way to learn while there is nothing else I could be going anyway while I drive the mower around.

I listened to all nine of them last night. I couldn't stop! Good stuff. Thank you so much for posting them. I've bookmarked a bunch of information and list of books from Norman Geisler and Dave Hunt. I'm going to be very busy taking all of this in, in the next few weeks.

[Apologette]

Arminianism: Your name is penciled in the Book of Life!

[alanmolstad]

Geisler I like and I can support stuff he writes...I think I remember Walter Martin used to suggest reading some of his books.

As for Hunt?.....well.....Hunt has a few things that Walter called into question...I cant remember the issue he had with Hunt, but I do remember that Hunt and Walter used to talk about some issues where they were not on the same page.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Geisler I like and I can support stuff he writes...I think I remember Walter Martin used to suggest reading some of his books.

As for Hunt?.....well.....Hunt has a few things that Walter called into question...I cant remember the issue he had with Hunt, but I do remember that Hunt and Walter used to talk about some issues where they were not on the same page.

Dave Hunt does believe in the "P" (perserverance of the Saints) in TULIP, so perhaps that is their point of disagreement? I don't know, yet. I'm sure I'll find out!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Dave Hunt does believe in the "P" (perserverance of the Saints) in TULIP, so perhaps that is their point of disagreement? I don't know, yet. I'm sure I'll find out!

well........I dont think it was even about Calvinism...

its hard for me to remember, but I think it was about some other ministries that Hunt felt had crossed the line and become a CULT.....

[alanmolstad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hu...n_apologist%29


Calvinism

Hunt addressed Calvinism in a book called What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God, published in 2002 and revised in 2004 and 2006.

He sought to refute many alleged misconceptions of Calvinism without taking an Arminian stance.

He outlined a theological middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, where, according to Hunt, one can believe in eternal security but reject Calvinistic teaching.

Also published in 2004 was Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views, co-written in a point-counterpoint debate format by Hunt and Calvinist apologist James White.

[Libby]

Thanks, Alan. I saw that book, last night, when I was looking around. Looks pretty interesting. I'm going through some more YouTubes, right now, just to familiarize myself with him and some others.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, would you mind watching this seven minute video (mostly on Ephesians 2:8)? I would really like to hear your opinion on this. The teacher is Dr. Norman Geisler. Are you familiar with him? I am not, but have really enjoyed what I've listened to, so far!

This was originally posted by Alan on another forum.

He doesn't understand the Calvinist position. At minute mark 2:08 he says "faith follows salvation". That is false. And that is not what Calvinists believe. Libby I surprised that you didn't pick that one up yourself. Salvation comes when a persons repents and places his faith in Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think "changes" is the proper word. If you notice, even in Ephesians 2:8, "faith" comes first, then regeneration.

Where in Ephesians 2:8 does it say that faith comes first, then regeneration?

Originally Posted by Libby

God draws us by his grace, through "faith" (our faith, our acceptance of his gift) and THEN, we will be saved (regenerated).

When one repents and places his faith in Christ then he is saved. But a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ until after he is drawn. And we know that all those who are drawn are raised.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know Norm Geisler in fact he has a pretty good book that I read several years ago ***led "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist". I will take a look at his video later today and get back with you.

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

Originally Posted by Libby

"This" is salvation, which is absolutely by His grace and His doing, but we must "accept" that gift by putting our faith in Him.

What about "grace" and "faith" aren't they part of the "this"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

He doesn't understand the Calvinist position. At minute mark 2:08 he says "faith follows salvation". That is false. And that is not what Calvinists believe. ...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
". In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. God saves sinners so that they will believe, not because they believe out of their own resources."



Thus...

There is support for what the video is teaching us about Calvinism's teachings...and Im glad to see you also reject the same false teachings that I reject found within Calvinism

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
". In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. God saves sinners so that they will believe, not because they believe out of their own resources."



Thus...

There is support for what the video is teaching us about Calvinism's teachings...and Im glad to see you also reject the same false teachings that I reject found within Calvinism

Not sure what point your are trying to make Alan.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

He doesn't understand the Calvinist position. At minute mark 2:08 he says "faith follows salvation". That is false. And that is not what Calvinists believe. Libby I surprised that you didn't pick that one up yourself. Salvation comes when a persons repents and places his faith in Christ.

How can you have faith before regeneration, if you believe one is "dead in sin" before regeneration?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
". In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. God saves sinners so that they will believe, not because they believe out of their own resources."



Thus...

There is support for what the video is teaching us about Calvinism's teachings...and Im glad to see you also reject the same false teachings that I reject found within Calvinism

Yes, this is my understanding, as well.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where in Ephesians 2:8 does it say that faith comes first, then regeneration?

Ephesians 2:8 says that it is by grace that you are saved...thru faith.. God's grace (his drawing) and then your faith (acceptance/receiving Him, repentance) THEN salvation (regeneration).

When one repents and places his faith in Christ then he is saved. But a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ until after he is drawn. And we know that all those who are drawn are raised.

No, all of those who have faith, when they are drawn, will be raised up.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not sure what point your are trying to make Alan.

Hope you get a chance to listen to the whole set, by Geisler. He really explains things very clearly.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not sure what point your are trying to make Alan.

really?

Well thats too bad, cuz you would have gotten a better idea of Calvinism's real teachings if you caught my point....







But on the bright side, Im glad you agree with me in that faith comes before.....not after...not 2nd to salvation's regeneration