Free Will

[alanmolstad]

"In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. God saves sinners so that they will believe, not because they believe out of their own resources."

the above is wrong...

faith is not the fruit......it does not come after....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about "grace" and "faith" aren't they part of the "this"?

I think the "this" in that sentence is referring to salvation. It (salvation) is, of course, by God's grace and thru our faith in receiving it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

really?

Yea really. Here is part of your post.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
"[B]. In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. . .

If faith is a fruit of regeneration then does faith come before or after regeneration? ? ? After of course. And salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yea really. Here is part of your post.

If faith is a fruit of regeneration then does faith come before or after regeneration? ? ?

I think he's talking about the Calvinist view. Calvinists believe faith is the fruit of regeneration.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Ephesians 2:8 says that it is by grace that you are saved...thru faith.. God's grace (his drawing) and then your faith (acceptance/receiving Him, repentance) THEN salvation (regeneration).

OK I see why were seem to be talking past one another. You ***ume that salvation = regeneration. Salvation = when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. Regeneration = being born again. Let's look at a verse that speaks about being born again.

John 3
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Here Jesus tells us about being born again. Notice how he describes it--he never describes the things that you and Alan are talking about as a definition of being born again.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he's talking about the Calvinist view. Calvinists believe faith is the fruit of regeneration.

yes...they are screwed up about that stuff.....

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK I see why were seem to be talking past one another. You ***ume that salvation = regeneration. Salvation = when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. Regeneration = being born again. Let's look at a verse that speaks about being born again.

John 3
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Here Jesus tells us about being born again. Notice how he describes it--he never describes the things that you and Alan are talking about as a definition of being born again.

Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes...they are screwed up about that stuff.....

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart

You mean the guy in the video who doesn't seem to even know Calvinist's beliefs?

[Libby]

From a site off the web:

"Regeneration is a sovereign work of God whereby he supernaturally intervenes in a life, creates a new heart, gives new life and enables one to come to Christ."

Pretty sure that is the Calvinist view.

Geisler is saying that man has faith first and then becomes a new man (is regenerated).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.

Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.

Thanks for comparisons above. That makes it more clear.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.

Originally Posted by Libby

Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

You could be right, Billy. I really don't know. But, it seems there is no "official doctrine" on this, so the belief is rather fluid. Would be nice to have some LDS input.

If there is no statement from a GA and nothing in there SW then there is no doctrine and they are free to be in as much error and be sinless into their false gods.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.

Thanks for comparisons above. That makes it more clear.

Can a corpse believe?

[alanmolstad]

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.

Do you believe that regeneration comes before faith?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you believe that regeneration comes before faith?

Perhaps you missed my post. I answered your question and then I gave you the order of salvation which says the same thing.

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.

Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart

If you are following along with the discussion you would have realized that Geisler sets up a straw man argument. So in reality he doesn't "takes the Calvinist ideas apart".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

Originally Posted by Libby

"This" is salvation, which is absolutely by His grace and His doing, but we must "accept" that gift by putting our faith in Him.

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about "grace" and "faith" aren't they part of the "this"?

Originally Posted by Libby

I think the "this" in that sentence is referring to salvation. It (salvation) is, of course, by God's grace and thru our faith in receiving it.

A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you are following along with the discussion you would have realized that Geisler sets up a straw man argument. So in reality he doesn't "takes the Calvinist ideas apart".

I'm pretty sure Dr. Geisler understands Calvinism, Billy.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Perhaps you missed my post. I answered your question and then I gave you the order of salvation which says the same thing.

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on it, but looking at it again, it didn't seem very clear. The second step on the Calvinist side is "Atonement". What does that mean, exactly? I don't even see it on the Arminian side. And, then the gospel call and then the inward call...? Then regeneration?

I'm going to study this a bit and find some other sites. I have one bookmarked. I'll look at it again. What seemed, relatively simple, last night, seems to be getting a bit convoluted, in this conversation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

The entire phrase is about salvation. It describes the process. But, I think the "this" is specifically about salvation.

The main point I wanted to bring to all of this is that we do have to receive God's gracious gift...we have to participate in receiving it in faith. God offers it, as a free gift. We can do absolutely nothing to earn it...but, we do have to reach out in faith and receive it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm pretty sure Dr. Geisler understands Calvinism, Billy.

I have shown you where he is wrong on multiple occasions now and I have said that he has set up a straw man argument. Do you want to discuss this further?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have shown you where he is wrong on multiple occasions now and I have said that he has set up a straw man argument. Do you want to discuss this further?

Yes...multiple occasions? I see that you had a question about his use of the word regeneration in the place of salvation. What were your other questions (concerns)?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on it, but looking at it again, it didn't seem very clear. . . .

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith.

Libby I don't know how much more clear I could have been.