Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby I don't know how much more clear I could have been.

Yes, you answered the main question very clearly. I was talking about the order of salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes...multiple occasions? I see that you had a question about his use of the word regeneration in the place of salvation. What were your other questions?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.

His straw man argument is that Calvinists believe that Faith FOLLOWS salvation and he states this in at least three different ways as noted above. Then he goes to Ephesians 2 to prove his straw man argument that faith doesn't follow salvation. Libby are you playing around with me know. Don't you realize that this is a straw man argument?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, you answered the main question very clearly. I was talking about the order of salvation.

And in that same exact post I gave you the order of salvation for both the Reformed and the Arminian position. Here it is again for you.

Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Libby]

And I asked you some questions about it. Can you answer them?

[Billyray]

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Here Jesus is talking to some that are following him and listening to his teaching. What reason did Jesus give these guys for why they didn't believe?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

And I asked you some questions about it. Can you answer them?

I am more than happy to answer your question. I have already answered a number of them but you seem to ignore my answers. Go ahead and give me the questions that you want me to answer. BTW I have given you a number of questions so I hope that you are willing to answer mine as well.

[Billyray]

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You have asked a lot question about being born again (regeneration), tell me what Jesus says this is like?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

Originally Posted by Libby

The entire phrase is about salvation. It describes the process. But, I think the "this" is specifically about salvation. . .

BK Commentary
Ephesians 2:8-9

"And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun "this" htouto. Though some think it refers back to "grace" and others to "faith," neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas "grace" and "faith" are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph. 1:15 and 3:1 touto, "this," refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (2:4- 8 a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is "not from yourselves"), but rather, its source is God's grace for "it is the gift of God"


Also see James White
James White, FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD, Eph.2 8-10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7fulxNJMc
at minute mark 1:30

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am more than happy to answer your question. I have already answered a number of them but you seem to ignore my answers. Go ahead and give me the questions that you want me to answer. BTW I have given you a number of questions so I hope that you are willing to answer mine as well.

Sorry, I'm not ignoring your answers. I'm hung up on the "order of salvation". I was trying to get some clarification (for myself). I think the order reflects the differences between the two sets of beliefs, but I was having a problem sorting out what you posted on this.

I'm also unclear as to the distinction you're making between salvation and regeneration. Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously? I have always heard people describe their "born again" experience (regeneration) as that moment that they believed they were saved.

[Billyray]

I have said on multiple occasions now that salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. But there still seems to be some confusion so I will insert it into the list that I provided above.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

[Libby]

Found this, which seems a little more straight forward.

The debate over ordo salutis is most keenly developed between the Reformed and Arminian systems.

In the Reformed tradition, the ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/ordo-sal...#ixzz31Zj3SUO3

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously? I have always heard people describe their "born again" experience (regeneration) as that moment that they believed they were saved.

Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously?
Yes in many (if not most cases) I think that is the case. Wayne Grudem describes this in the bottom half of the quote below--I included the entire quote in case you are interested

Wayne Grudem
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...on_grudem.html

C. In This Sense of “Regeneration,” It Comes Before Saving Faith

Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes “before” saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us and we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds.

Yet there are several p***ages that tell us that this secret, hidden work of God in our spirits does in fact come before we respond to God in saving faith (though often it may be only seconds before we respond). When talking about regeneration with Nicodemus, Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Now we enter the kingdom of God when we become Christians at conversion. But Jesus says that we have to be born “of the Spirit” before we can do that.7 Our inability to come to Christ on our own, without an initial work of God within us, is also emphasized when Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:65). This inward act of regeneration is described beautifully when Luke says of Lydia, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). First the Lord opened her heart, then she was able to give heed to Paul’s preaching and to respond in faith.

By contrast, Paul tells us, “The man without the Spirit (literally, the “natural man”) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14 NIV). He also says of people apart from Christ, “no one understands, No one seeks for God” (Rom. 3:11).

The solution to this spiritual deadness and inability to respond only comes when God gives us new life within. “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our tresp***es made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:4–5). Paul also says, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (Col. 2:13 NIV).8

The idea that regeneration comes before saving faith is not always understood by evangelicals today. Sometimes people will even say something like, “If you believe in Christ as your Savior, then (after you believe) you will be born again.” But Scripture itself never says anything like that. This new birth is viewed by Scripture as something that God does within us in order to enable us to believe.

The reason that evangelicals often think that regeneration comes after saving faith is that they see the results (love for God and his Word, and turning from sin) after people come to faith, and they think that regeneration must therefore have come after saving faith. Yet here we must decide on the basis of what Scripture tells us, because regeneration itself is not something we see or know about directly: “The wind ****s where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).

Because Christians often tend to focus on the results of regeneration, rather than the hidden spiritual act of God itself, some evangelical statements of faith have contained wording that suggests that regeneration comes after saving faith. So, for example, the statement of faith of the Evangelical Free Church of America (which has been adapted by a number of other evangelical organizations) says,
We believe that the true Church is composed of all such persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are united together in the body of Christ of which He is the Head. (paragraph 8)

Here the word “regeneration” apparently means the outward evidence of regeneration that is seen in a changed life, evidence that certainly does come after saving faith. Thus “being born again” is thought of not in terms of the initial impartation of new life, but in terms of the total life change that results from that impartation. If the term “regeneration” is understood in this way, then it would be true that regeneration comes after saving faith.

Nevertheless, if we are to use language that closely conforms to the actual wording of Scripture, it would be better to restrict the word “regeneration” to the instantaneous, initial work of God in which he imparts spiritual life to us. Then we can emphasize that we do not see regeneration itself but only the results of it in our lives, and that faith in Christ for salvation is the first result that we see. In fact, we can never know that we have been regenerated until we come to faith in Christ, for that is the outward evidence of this hidden, inward work of God. Once we do come to saving faith in Christ, we know that we have been born again.

By way of application, we should realize that the explanation of the gospel message in Scripture does not take the form of a command, “Be born again and you will be saved,” but rather, “Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”9 This is the consistent pattern in the preaching of the gospel throughout the book of Acts, and also in the descriptions of the gospel given in the Epistles.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have said on multiple occasions now that salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. But there still seems to be some confusion so I will insert it into the list that I provided above.

Yes, but couldn't those last steps (as I mentioned above) happen almost simultaneously? It did with Paul on the Road to Damascus. So, separating out regeneration from salvation seems a bit nitpicky, is what I'm saying.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

[Libby]

Ah, thank you! I didn't see this before my last post.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Found this, which seems a little more straight forward.
In the Reformed tradition, the ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

Originally Posted by Billyray

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

They are identical lists with the exception of "atonement" in the list that I gave you which your list does not have and evangelism is split into gospel call and inward call.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You have asked a lot question about being born again (regeneration), tell me what Jesus says this is like?

Yes, I'm very familiar with this and especially that last verse. I know that Calvinists use this as one of their proof texts for God "doing as he pleases" and regenerating whom he pleases.

The "wind" is the Holy Spirit, yes? Will have to find some commentary on this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, but couldn't those last steps (as I mentioned above) happen almost simultaneously? It did with Paul on the Road to Damascus. So, separating out regeneration from salvation seems a bit nitpicky, is what I'm saying.

See post #287

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They are identical lists with the exception of "atonement" in the list that I gave you which your list does not have and evangelism is split into gospel call and inward call.

Yes, I was getting kind of frustrated with this "order of salvation" business, because I found several different lists...some had more things on it, like yours, that I had not seen on other lists.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

See post #287

Thanks...already done.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I'm very familiar with this and especially that last verse. I know that Calvinists use this as one of their proof texts for God "doing as he pleases" and regenerating whom he pleases.

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So can you tell me what Jesus says that being born again is like?
Can a person even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it--without being born again?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So can you tell me what Jesus says that being born again is like?
Can a person even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it--without being born again?

No, they cannot.

[Billyray]

Now tie this in with the verses in John 6. A person can't (is unable) to come to Christ until God draws them. This indicates that God has to change the person in some way in order (to make him able) to come to Christ. And don't forget the next phrase and those who are drawn ARE raised. If all are drawn then all will be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, they cannot.

8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus describes being born again like the wind "you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going". Notice he doesn't say repent and have faith and you will be born again--in that case there would be a very specific formula that anyone could see--but that is not what Christ says.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Now tie this in with the verses in John 6. A person can't (is unable) to come to Christ until God draws them. This indicates that God has to change the person in some way in order (to make him able) to come to Christ. And don't forget the next phrase and those who are drawn ARE raised. If all are drawn then all will be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

I don't think the "drawing" is, necessarily, creating a "change" within man...at least, not the kind of change that Calvinists consider necessary, before man can receive God. We talked about this, before, at length.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus describes being born again like the wind "you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going". Notice he doesn't say repent and have faith and you will be born again--in that case there would be a very specific formula that anyone could see--but that is not what Christ says.

But, Jesus does say that, in other places. Definitely, we must repent and have faith (believe).

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”