Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think the "drawing" is, necessarily, creating a "change" within man...at least, not the kind of change that Calvinists consider necessary, before man can receive God. We talked about this, before, at length.

If a person can't come to Christ (i.e. he is unable) prior to being drawn by the Father then how would you characterize this?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, Jesus does say that, in other places. Definitely, we must repent and have faith (believe).

Of course we must repent and place our faith in Christ (conversion) but tell me what Jesus says about being born again in John 3

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Of course we must repent and place our faith in Christ (conversion) but tell me what Jesus says about being born again in John 3

About not entering the Kingdom of God, you mean? Where is the Kingdom of God? Isn't it in heaven? Isn't he talking about not entering the Kingdom of God (after we die), unless we have been "born again"? That's how I am reading it..

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a person can't come to Christ (i.e. he is unable) prior to being drawn by the Father then how would you characterize this?

I told you, I see it more as "unaware", than "unable". Christ's drawing brings awareness to him and his gift of salvation.

I remember, so well, a stark awareness that came to me, over on CARM, after I had been there for awhile. I was having a conversation with Joe (Saint Grandpa, who no longer posts there) and he made the "requirement" for salvation so very simple (believe in Christ and you will be saved). I had been going through all of these complicated arguments (kind of like we are doing now) trying to "figure out" the "truth"...and when he said that, I said, to him, "really? that's it?" And, something deep within me knew that he was telling me the truth. That was about six years ago. I still hold that truth, even though my ego, sometimes, wanders down some strange "intellectual" paths. That moment of awareness is forever with me.

That's how I see God's "drawing"....a stark awareness of truth (of Him and what he has done for us), that you didn't have before. A very "awake" moment or moments that you don't forget. Like someone turned on the light.

I guess you could think of that as "enabling", as well. It did "enable" me to see something much more clearly than I ever had before.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where is the Kingdom of God? Isn't it in heaven? Isn't he talking about not entering the Kingdom of God (after we die), unless we have been "born again"? That's how I am reading it..

Libby I get the sense that you are trying to get out from what Jesus say about being born again. And how does this question relate to this?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby I get the sense that you are trying to get out from what Jesus say about being born again. And how does this question relate to this?

It relates directly to the verses that you quoted. I get the feeling that you are trying to lead me where you want to go, with this.

Where is the Kingdom of God? Is it not in heaven?

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I told you, I see it more as "unaware", than "unable". Christ's drawing brings awareness to him and his gift of salvation.

I remember, so well, a stark awareness that came to me, over on CARM, after I had been there for awhile. I was having a conversation with Joe (Saint Grandpa, who no longer posts there) and he made the "requirement" for salvation so very simple (believe in Christ and you will be saved). I had been going through all of these complicated arguments (kind of like we are doing now) trying to "figure out" the "truth"...and when he said that, I said, to him, "really? that's it?" And, something deep within me knew that he was telling me the truth. That was about six years ago. I still hold that truth, even though my ego, sometimes, wanders down some strange "intellectual" paths. That moment of awareness is forever with me.

That's how I see God's "drawing"....a stark awareness of truth (of Him and what he has done for us), that you didn't have before. A very "awake" moment or moments that you don't forget. Like someone turned on the light.

I guess you could think of that as "enabling", as well. It did "enable" me to see something much more clearly than I ever had before.

Lot's of people are aware of Christ and his teachings but are unable to come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father. Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able but they come to Christ and are raised. One thing you are forgetting in all of this is that all who are drawn ARE raised. If God drew every single person then every single person would be raised and this is not the case.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It relates directly to the verses that you quoted. I get the feeling that you are trying to lead me where you want to go, with this.

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Lot's of people are aware of Christ and his teachings but are unable to come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father. Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able but they come to Christ and are raised. One thing you are forgetting in all of this is that all who are drawn ARE raised. If God drew every single person then every single person would be raised and this is not the case.

Billy, you are inserting your own understanding on that verse. It doesn't say all who are drawn will be raised. It says, no one can come to him unless the Father draws him...and I will raise them up on the last day (he will raise those who come to him...those who respond).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places.

Do no accuse me of changing the subject. I have not done that, at all.

You haven't answered my question about the Kingdom of God. What does that mean to you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places.

And what did he say exactly in John 3 about being born again?

Originally Posted by Libby

Do no accuse me of changing the subject. I have not done that, at all.

You are trying to change the subject.

[Libby]

Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able

Yes, their minds and hearts are made aware of the truth of what Christ did for us. People who are simply aware of Jesus and his teachings, are not, necessarily, aware of the sacrifice and meaning of that. Or they simply reject it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, you are inserting your own understanding on that verse. It doesn't say all who are drawn will be raised. It says, no one can come to him unless the Father draws him...and I will raise them up on the last day (he will raise those who come to him...those who respond).

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Who are "them" in this verse?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And what did he say exactly in John 3 about being born again?

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Who are "them" in this verse?

Those who are drawn and respond.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Those who are drawn and respond.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

So the first "them" is different than the second "them" in this sentence?

Where does it say that God draws ALL men and but only those who respond will be raised in this verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.

You are changing the subject, if you want to know then simply look it up.

What does Jesus say about being born again in this section of scripture.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are changing the subject, if you want to know then simply look it up.

What does Jesus say about being born again in this section of scripture.

What the heck? I've answered your question twice, now. I am supposed to continue answering YOUR questions, but you don't have to answer mine? I want to know what YOU believe the "Kingdom of God" means. Remember the importance of defining terms?

What happened to your claim that you would "gladly answer any of my questions"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What the heck? I've answered your question twice, now.

Here was your last response. Hardly an answer to my question.

Originally Posted by Libby

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.

I wish you would stay on task and actually come to terms what being born again (regeneration) means. We haven't got to that point yet.

Originally Posted by Libby

What happened to your claim that you would "gladly answer any of my questions"?

I will after you finish answering what Jesus said about being born again (regeneration).

These verses are where Jesus explains being born again (regeneration). Does this go along with your believe that a person repents and then places his faith in Christ then he will be born again?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

Originally Posted by Libby

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places. . .

Which other verses are you referring to exactly?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which other verses are you referring to exactly?

Mark 1:15, Jesus, himself, says "repent and believe". John the Baptist said it, Paul said it.

Are you going to answer my question about the Kingdom of Heaven? Why are you so hesitant to answer that simple question?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here was your last response. Hardly an answer to my question.

You asked what Jesus said about being born again. I gave you almost a direct quote.

I wish you would stay on task and actually come to terms what being born again (regeneration) means. We haven't got to that point yet.

I know what it means and it is not the same as God's "drawing". God's drawing can be the beginning stages of regeneration, for some, if they respond positively to the drawing. If they respond in faith and belief.

These verses are where Jesus explains being born again (regeneration). Does this go along with your believe that a person repents and then places his faith in Christ then he will be born again?

Regeneration is something God is doing to us, if we respond positively to His drawing.

[Libby]

Okay, here is John 3, again.

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Mark 1:15, Jesus, himself, says "repent and believe". John the Baptist said it, Paul said it.

Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

And where does is say anything about regeneration (born again) in this p***age?

Originally Posted by Libby

Are you going to answer my question about the Kingdom of Heaven? Why are you so hesitant to answer that simple question?

I am hesitant to answer your question because I want to stick on the topic at hand which is regeneration (born again). You are doing exactly what BigJ does by trying to change direction to another topic and when I bite the discussion moves to a completely different area. Being born again (regeneration) is very important and is one of the KEY differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, here is John 3, again.

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

If being born again has to do with a prescribed sequence such as repentance and placing your faith in Christ which is then immediately followed by being born again then it would be completely opposite of what Christ has told us HIMSELF about being born again. So you know that being born again is not this prescribed repentance and faith results in being born again.