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Thread: Free Will

  1. #51
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    It is strange Billy, Alan teaches that all men are God's.....

    Can you back that up?

  2. #52
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I've never seen Alan say that "all men belong to God".

    He has said (as I have) that God "draws all men". Some will respond, some will not.
    Libby......at this point, I am simply amused at how both Billy and James will pull stuff out of thin air and claim we said this....when it's all in their imaginations...

    or perhaps is the result of enjoying some type of newly legal recreational activity in Colorado?

  3. #53
    alanmolstad
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    I have posted volumes on how I define and use the term "Free Will"......
    I would refer you to any of my posts on this topic as anything I might add to what i have already said is only going to be repeating ...

    Do you have another thing you wanted me to post on?

  4. #54
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Libby......at this point, I am simply amused at how both Billy and James will pull stuff out of thin air and claim we said this....when it's all in their imaginations...

    or perhaps is the result of enjoying some type of newly legal recreational activity in Colorado?
    Alan I haven't put anything into thin air as you claim--I am patiently waiting for you to give me a concise definition of the word "free will". It would help out our discussion immensely if you could respond to my simple request.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    we hear many voices whispering im sure....but in the end we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...

    free will means that we are not under the control of others...things feelings or people

    but free will does not mean "error free"
    What do you think THIS p***age means?

    John 6:44
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    NKJV

    And how do you understand THIS one?

    John 6:65
    65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
    NKJV

    In the light of those two p***ages, do you STILL want to claim 'we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...?'

    GOD CHOSE US, we did not choose Him

    According to the BIBLE GOD chose us a LONG TIME before we were even born!
    Eph 1:3-6
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
    NKJV


    I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the secular claim that we all have 'free will' to choose to do whatever we want.

  6. #56
    alanmolstad
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    I have already given you the definition I use.....
    I have provided Text that support the way I use the term.
    I have provided you with an understanding of the many Text that some Calvinists try to use to prove man is without Free Will.....and I have offered to answer any questions about things I have said...

    Do you have any other questions about the Bible's concept of Free Will, or about anything I have posted?

  7. #57
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    What do you think THIS p***age means?

    John 6:44
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    NKJV

    ]
    it points to the verse - Romans 1:20

    Is the universe still spinning?
    Is the earth still here?

    If so, then you are hearing the call.......for the Universe never stops declaring the nature of God to you.

  8. #58
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [B]

    And how do you understand THIS one?

    John 6:65
    65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
    NKJV

    [B
    Walter Martin talked about this in that one recording I posted the link to called "Martin Under Fire
    the idea is that we come to the joys of salvation via our own decision....and when we enter into it we see a sign above the door in God's hand, "You did not choose me, I chose you"




  9. #59
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [B][COLOR=#008000]In the light of those two p***ages, do you STILL want to claim 'we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...?'

    ]
    yes,,,,
    God is not so weak that he has to first rob the person of their own Free Will just to carry out his will in their life!

    That would be a silly type of god to trust...a god who gets nervous at the gifts he has given.....LOL
    "Oh no, I gave them all Free Will and now they are stronger than I am!...What shall I ever do?"

  10. #60
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the secular claim that we all have 'free will' to choose to do whatever we want.
    [/COLOR][/B]
    Well I will be around....
    Let me know if you want some answers....

  11. #61
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I have already given you the definition I use.....
    I have provided Text that support the way I use the term.
    I have provided you with an understanding of the many Text that some Calvinists try to use to prove man is without Free Will.....and I have offered to answer any questions about things I have said...

    Do you have any other questions about the Bible's concept of Free Will, or about anything I have posted?
    Sure. Perhaps I missed the post where you provided your definition of free will. Could you post a concise definition (as you are defining it) for me. It would be helpful if you post your definition without all of the extra superfluous information. Thanks.

  12. #62
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Sure. Perhaps I missed the post where you provided your definition of free will. Could you post a concise definition (as you are defining it) for me. It would be helpful if you post your definition without all of the extra superfluous information. Thanks.
    see post #56

  13. #63
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Sure. Perhaps I missed the post where you provided your definition of free will. Could you post a concise definition (as you are defining it) for me. It would be helpful if you post your definition without all of the extra superfluous information. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    see post #56
    OK I will look at post #56.

    POST #56
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I have already given you the definition I use.....
    I have provided Text that support the way I use the term.
    I have provided you with an understanding of the many Text that some Calvinists try to use to prove man is without Free Will.....and I have offered to answer any questions about things I have said...

    Do you have any other questions about the Bible's concept of Free Will, or about anything I have posted?
    Above is post #56. Can you point out when in this post you have defined "free will"?

    Alan how can we discuss "free will" when you won't even give me a concise definition of how you are using this word. If you want we can simply use the dictionary definition. But let me know either way how you would like to define it so we can actually get on with the discussion.

  14. #64
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    What do you think THIS p***age means?

    John 6:44
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    NKJV

    And how do you understand THIS one?

    John 6:65
    65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
    NKJV

    In the light of those two p***ages, do you STILL want to claim 'we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...?'

    GOD CHOSE US, we did not choose Him

    According to the BIBLE GOD chose us a LONG TIME before we were even born!
    Eph 1:3-6
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
    NKJV


    I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the secular claim that we all have 'free will' to choose to do whatever we want.
    Those are all very good verses. I can only hope that Alan or any of the other "free will" posters will address them.

  15. #65
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    What do you think THIS p***age means?

    John 6:44
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    NKJV
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    it points to the verse - Romans 1:20

    Is the universe still spinning?
    Is the earth still here?

    If so, then you are hearing the call.......for the Universe never stops declaring the nature of God to you.
    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Alan I didn't quite follow your explanation. Could you explain this for me?

  16. #66
    Libby
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    Christian - GOD CHOSE US, we did not choose Him

    According to the BIBLE GOD chose us a LONG TIME before we were even born!
    That's correct.

    Can you tell me, on what basis God chose those whom he will save? How did he decide?

  17. #67
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    That's correct.

    Can you tell me, on what basis God chose those whom he will save? How did he decide?
    But from an Arminian point of view isn't it more accurate to say that you choose yourself?

  18. #68
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    Can you tell me, on what basis God chose those whom he will save? How did he decide?
    We are never told why God choose one person and did not choose another. We know from Romans 9 that it was not based on anything that we have done. But we do have some insight of who He did not choose.

    1 Corinthians 1
    26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him.

  19. #69
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We are never told why God choose one person and did not choose another. We know from Romans 9 that it was not based on anything that we have done. But we do have some insight of who He did not choose.
    Romans 9 is not about salvation. It is about choosing leadership among the Israelites.

    1 Corinthians 1
    26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him.
    God doesn't choose us for these reasons, at least. I believe God does want a receptive heart...and a humbling of our spirits. We really cannot come to him without that.

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Romans 9 is not about salvation. It is about choosing leadership among the Israelites.
    Libby I know that you believe that salvation is not even hinted at in Romans 9 but humor me and let's take a look at this chapter and see if we can find any mention of it. Fair enough?

    Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

    Do you think that cut off from Christ has anything to do with salvation?

  21. #71
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But from an Arminian point of view isn't it more accurate to say that you choose yourself?
    No. I think it's going to be more accurate to say that it is a give and take process, between God and his people...starting with God's grace..and drawing us.

  22. #72
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Libby I know that you believe that salvation is not even hinted at in Romans 9 but humor me and let's take a look at this chapter and see if we can find any mention of it. Fair enough?

    Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

    Do you think that cut off from Christ has anything to do with salvation?
    Yes, that part does. Paul is lamenting that many of his own people are unbelievers...those who had been given so very much, and yet do not believe...and Paul wishes himself cursed, that they might be believing and saved.

  23. #73
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, that part does. Paul is lamenting that many of his own people are unbelievers...those who had been given so very much, and yet do not believe...and Paul wishes himself cursed, that they might be believing and saved.
    Correct. So despite the fact that you said Romans 9 had nothing to do with salvation here we see right out of the gate Paul mentions salvation, not only his salvation but his desire for the salvation of his fellow Jews.

    BK Commentary
    ". . .Paul affirmed his deep anguish of heart over the rejection of the gospel by the vast majority of Jews. His desire for their salvation was so strong that he was at the point of wishing (imperf. tense, I could wish) that he were cursed and cut off from Christ for his kinsmen, the Israelites. . ."

  24. #74
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Correct. So despite the fact that you said Romans 9 had nothing to do with salvation here we see right out of the gate Paul mentions salvation, not only his salvation but his desire for the salvation of his fellow Jews.

    BK Commentary
    ". . .Paul affirmed his deep anguish of heart over the rejection of the gospel by the vast majority of Jews. His desire for their salvation was so strong that he was at the point of wishing (imperf. tense, I could wish) that he were cursed and cut off from Christ for his kinsmen, the Israelites. . ."
    I shouldn't have made my remark so general. I was speaking, specifically, about the Esau/Jacob part.

    Are you ***uming that, just because the first part speaks of salvation, that the whole chapter is about salvation?

  25. #75
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I shouldn't have made my remark so general. I was speaking, specifically, about the Esau/Jacob part.

    Are you ***uming that, just because the first part speaks of salvation, that the whole chapter is about salvation?
    So far we have seen Paul talk about salvation in the opening section of this chapter which is Romans 9:1-5. How about anywhere else in this chapter? Let's see. Here is the very next verse.

    Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    Any hint of salvation in this verse?

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