Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Father wasn't born, nor did he die on the cross...but, he was right there with Jesus, in Spirit.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Alan said that Jesus SAW the Father doing these things. Therefore these events preceded Jesus doing them. When do you propose that the Father did these things?

[Libby]

I think Alan was just trying to make a point.

Jesus DID SAY, he did nothing of himself or without seeing the Father do it first.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think Alan was just trying to make a point.

Jesus DID SAY, he did nothing of himself or without seeing the Father do it first.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So when did Jesus see the Father born? Or die on the cross?

[alanmolstad]

see post 977 now!

[alanmolstad]

Libby......

One of the little problems that Billy has is the tendency to get stuck and keep asking the same question over and over.

This is the reason I had to put him on my IGNORE LISTfor a long time, and felt for sure that he had learned his lesson.

But as we can see he has gotten himself suck in another loop again....

So Libby, tell you what, for the good of the forum and to show our other guests that none of us need to up with this type of disruption, I now think what is going to need to happen is that if he asks the same question one more time then you and I are going to need to talk via a private message about what action we should take to get things "fixed" again......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby......

One of the little problems that Billy has is the tendency to get stuck and keep asking the same question over and over.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

If you answer the question I wouldn't have the need to ask you over and over again. Perhaps you are unaware that you haven't answered my questions OR perhaps you simply are trying your best to avoid them. Here they are again for you.

When did Jesus see the Father be born and take on a body?

When did Jesus see the Father die on the cross?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When did Jesus see the Father be born and take on a body?

The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

When did Jesus see the Father die on the cross?

The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.


The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

I have seen lots of lame excuses, but

[Libby]

Ah, now we are getting into LDS theology.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So when did Jesus see the Father born? Or die on the cross?

He didn't see the Father doing those things, but the point is, the Father was there with him, at all times.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Libby

Either I didn't see this or I had forgotten about it. We need to talk about this.

I think it will have to wait, though. I'm having trouble with my eyes, tonight. Had a procedure done on them today, so I can't really read very well, at the moment.

Back to John 12. Billy, I think this is a crucial part, and the part of John 12 that you believe proves your belief that God chooses certain people.

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

I haven't been able to read commentary on this, yet, but off the top of my head, I am guessing that God stopped striving with some of the worst offenders (those who simply would not believe or remain faithful). That's exactly what happened in the days of Noah...and with Babylon...and probably several other stories, I'm not remembering, at the moment.

Need to find the verses to go with that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He didn't see the Father doing those things, but the point is, the Father was there with him, at all times.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So are you finally ready to distance yourself from Alan's comment OR are you going to continue to defend his false beliefs?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Back to John 12. Billy, I think this is a crucial part, and the part of John 12 that you believe proves your belief that God chooses certain people.



I haven't been able to read commentary on this, yet, but off the top of my head, I am guessing that God stopped striving with some of the worst offenders (those who simply would not believe or remain faithful). That's exactly what happened in the days of Noah...and with Babylon...and probably several other stories, I'm not remembering, at the moment.

Need to find the verses to go with that.

In order to understand the intended meaning of a sentence or phrase you need to understand the context of discussion. We do this all of the time in everyday life--in order to understand the meaning of a sentence you need to listen to discussion on both sides of that sentence to see how it fits into what was said. So let's look at the surrounding verses and see if we can figure out the setting that this verse comes up. Let's start with John 12

Johh 12
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King

12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,

“Hosanna![d]”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”[e]
“Blessed is the king of Israel!”
14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written:

15 “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey’s colt.”[f]
16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

17 Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him. 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

This is at the end of Jesus' public ministry and on Palm Sunday He presents Himself as the Jewish Messiah riding in on a donkey from the Mount of Olives down through the garden of gethsemane then up towards the east side of the Temple. A couple things that we see in this section of the scripture is that this is all about the Jew and their Messiah presenting himself to them and in doing so He fulfills multiple prophecies of the coming Messiah. In this chapter alone--up to this point--Jesus has raised Lazarus from the dead followed by Jesus fulfilling multiple prophecies that point to their own Messiah. Some believed--but the majority did not. Jesus up to this point was sent to the Jews as their Messiah and His message has not been sent out to the Gentiles. The Jews themselves believed that their Messiah was sent them and them alone and certainly not for the lowly Gentiles.

ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So are you finally ready to distance yourself from Alan's comment OR are you going to continue to defend his false beliefs?

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan said that Jesus SAW the Father doing these things. Therefore these events preceded Jesus doing them. When do you propose that the Father did these things?

see post # 954

"My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."





Note to Libby...
this is as point-by-point specific as I can make it for him to understand.....Unless you know of a way to force a horse to drink?....
He has my clear words on the matter...and we have both posted the scripture "Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

But you can't make a horse drink.....

human free will allows us to be able to make up our own minds...we are only asked to put before them the truth and then trust in God....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

[I]"My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So the post above is not true then. Is that correct Alan?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Alan you are using this verse incorrectly because in context it means people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. But let's just ***ume that for the sake of argument that Jesus means individuals in this verse. The verse itself says that he will not draw people until he is lifted up. So Jesus could not have drawn ALL men prior to this time AND you don't have a single verse that says that the Father draws ALL men.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the post above is not true then. Is that correct Alan?

this will be your final warning by me.....you know Im not shy about adding a person's name to an IGNORE list ...of all people you should know i dont fool around about that, nor pretend...

I have posted the answer I have for your question, and I have referred to it enough times that you should know by now that the ice you are on is paper thin........

[alanmolstad]

paper thin.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this will be your final warning by me.....you know Im not shy about adding a person's name to an IGNORE list ...of all people you should know i dont fool around about that, nor pretend...

I have posted the answer I have for your question, and I have referred to it enough times that you should know by now that the ice you are on is paper thin........

Alan you haven't answered my question NOR have you retracted your false ***ertions--either would be fine. Or you can simply avoid the issue altogether and put me on ignore. It is your choice.

[alanmolstad]

You have all the answers you need....

Move on.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You have all the answers you need....

Move on.......

Alan I am simply trying to point out that you have made up in your mind that the Father draws ALL men to Christ and then you are going around the Bible scouring trying to twist scriptures to support your false belief.

[alanmolstad]

move on......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Alan you are using this verse incorrectly because in context it means people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. But let's just ***ume that for the sake of argument that Jesus means individuals in this verse. The verse itself says that he will not draw people until he is lifted up. So Jesus could not have drawn ALL men prior to this time AND you don't have a single verse that says that the Father draws ALL men.

Alan could you give me you take on John 12:32 within the context of Chapter 12 and also address the fact that it says that he "WILL DRAW" when he is lifted up.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So are you finally ready to distance yourself from Alan's comment OR are you going to continue to defend his false beliefs?

Billy, it is not a false belief. Alan "overstated" for EFFECT...do you get it? It's simply a rhetorical tool. You are making much too much of it and I think you need to drop it, because the "principle" behind his statement is, exactly, to the letter, what is stated in the Bible (which Alan has repeated numerous times).