Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Now let's look at the verses that follow John 12:32. If all people meant every single individual that ever lived--why follow that verse with verses 39-40 which says that God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--"therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE? If your point of view is correct the same exact people that God is drawing He is also blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts. This makes no sense at all.

It does make sense, Billy, when you take into consideration all of the verses that talk about sin causing people to turn from God, sometimes, causing a "seared conscience"..and God turning unrepentant sinners over to a reprobate mind. Sin, unrepented, and ongoing is very crippling.

If all people means all people groups this makes perfect sense in context to the rest of John 12 because during Christ's earthly ministry his message was aimed specifically to the Jews. But after the cross this spread to all the other people groups--i.e. the Gentiles. These are the "other sheep that are of this fold" that Jesus was speaking about.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't even have a problem with seeing it as "people groups". All types of people will be drawn. Some will come, some will not.

[alanmolstad]

you guys are up at 1:00 in the morning posting?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.

very true!

the son does nothing unless he sees the father doing it...This is why when Christ says he draws all men to himself we know this is only because the son saw the father drawing all men to himself!


And it was not just on the cross that god started to draw all men, for it says that God so loved the "whole world" that he gave his Son......not just the jews...not just the future believers...but the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!!

But because Jesus was talking about the future cross he also talked about what he would do on the cross....for it was though this one moment on the cross that the whole plan of god came forth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

. . .Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

Originally Posted by Libby

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.

So let's summarize.

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross
2. You don't have a single verse that say that the Father draws all people to Christ
3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It does make sense, Billy, when you take into consideration all of the verses that talk about sin causing people to turn from God, sometimes, causing a "seared conscience"..and God turning unrepentant sinners over to a reprobate mind. Sin, unrepented, and ongoing is very crippling.

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

Take a look at the following verses in Romans 3

Romans 3
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Now look at the verses from John 6

John 6

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

The message is pretty clear Libby but you don't want to believe it so you scrabble around trying to justify what YOU believe the scriptures should say.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is why when Christ says he draws all men to himself we know this is only because the son saw the father drawing all men to himself!

Can you list a single verse that says that God draws all men to himself?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you guys are up at 1:00 in the morning posting?

I'm retired. 1-1:30 am is my normal bedtime. I've always been a night owl, though. Even when I worked, I rarely went to bed before midnight.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So let's summarize.

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross

Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..

2. You don't have a single verse that say that the Father draws all people to Christ

Not explicitly, no, but there are many other verses that certainly imply this (that you seem to want to ignore).

3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

I didn't say these sinners were "believers", necessarily. Some people may never come to believe.

Take a look at the following verses in Romans 3

Now look at the verses from John 6

I agree with those verses. None will come to Christ without the Father's grace and drawing.

The message is pretty clear Libby but you don't want to believe it so you scrabble around trying to justify what YOU believe the scriptures should say.

I think that is what you are doing, Billy. You already have your belief system all worked out, so you don't see anything else that might contradict it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross

Originally Posted by Libby

Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..

And all of the people who lived and died prior to this time were NOT drawn by Christ. Therefore as I said this verse does not teach that Christ draws ALL people.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with those verses. None will come to Christ without the Father's grace and drawing.

If you agree with those verses (John 6) then you will agree that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think that is what you are doing, Billy. You already have your belief system all worked out, so you don't see anything else that might contradict it.

Actually Libby I am reading the scriptures and accepting what they say. You on the other hand are ignoring them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

How many that the Father gives to the Son are saved and raised up at the last day?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually Libby I am reading the scriptures and accepting what they say. You on the other hand are ignoring them.

No, I am not. You, on the other hand, seem to be ignoring all scriptures that say "all", "everyone", "the world, etc.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by billyray

how many that the father gives to the son are saved and raised up at the last day?

All............

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billyray
John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

Libby
I didn't say these sinners were "believers", necessarily. Some people may never come to believe.

And do you think that the reason that some may never come to believe is because God has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I am not. You, on the other hand, seem to be ignoring all scriptures that say "all", "everyone", "the world, etc.

Sure you are ignoring what the verses actually say. Let's look at a perfect example--a verse that you have used to support your belief and it is one that has "all" in it.

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross

Originally Posted by Libby

Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..

Originally Posted by Billyray

And all of the people who lived and died prior to this time were NOT drawn by Christ. Therefore as I said this verse does not teach that Christ draws ALL people.

Libby does the verse that you have used as a proof text--John 12:32--teach that Christ has drawn ALL men who have ever lived even those who lived and died before Jesus died on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Originally Posted by Billyray

How many that the Father gives to the Son are saved and raised up at the last day?

Originally Posted by Libby

All............

These are the verses that you quoted--not me--and they show that there are a select group of people that the Father gives to the Son and the Son will raise them at the last day. I am still not sure why you used these verses because they in no way support your position but disprove it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And do you think that the reason that some may never come to believe is because God has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart?

Do you believe God would do that for no reason? If they had not, first, seared their own conscience?

I'm asking what you believe, Billy..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you believe God would do that for no reason? If they had not, first, seared their own conscience?

I'm asking what you believe, Billy..

People do make a choice to either accept or reject God and they are responsible for that choice and we also know that unless God changes their heart they will never seek after Him. God does NOT draw all individuals.

As I have said in a prior post this chapter is speaking about other people groups namely the Gentiles. Christ came and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah and they rejected Him--John 12 shows us how Christ came as the Jewish Messiah and quotes several OT p***ages showing that he fulfilled prophecy and despite this and along with all of the miracles he was rejected. After the death of Christ the gospel went out to the Gentiles while at the same time there is a blindness over the Jews until right before the second coming when they will finally have their eyes opened and accept Christ as their Messiah.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

People do make a choice to either accept or reject God and they are responsible for that choice and we also know that unless God changes their heart they will never seek after Him. God does NOT draw all individuals.

As I have said in a prior post this chapter is speaking about other people groups namely the Gentiles. Christ came and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah and they rejected Him--John 12 shows us how Christ came as the Jewish Messiah and quotes several OT p***ages showing that he fulfilled prophecy and despite this and along with all of the miracles he was rejected. After the death of Christ the gospel went out to the Gentiles while at the same time there is a blindness over the Jews until right before the second coming when they will finally have their eyes opened and accept Christ as their Messiah.

But, not all of the Jews rejected him. Many believed.

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?

[Libby]

God does NOT draw all individuals.

I know that you believe this. I cannot justify it, not from the Bible and not from any sense of WHO God is.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, not all of the Jews rejected him. Many believed.

Of course many believed. During the OT there were true believers in the coming Messiah and this included those who lived during the time of Christ. The early members of the Church after the death of Christ were Jews.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know that you believe this. I cannot justify it, not from the Bible and not from any sense of WHO God is.

I have gone over and over with you the verses that clearly teach this. The problem is that you can't accept what it teaches--at least not yet. Perhaps you will someday see it.