Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Gosh, Billy....we have gone over this before.

The universe (IMO) does not specifically draw to Christ, but to God (of which Christ is a part). But, a basic belief in God may come first. Or simultaneously with a belief in Christ. Or any number of other ways you can think of.

Here is how it works>
God the Son made the universe and all the things in it.
When the universe was made, it was designed from the beginning to reflect the maker's hand and is able to bring the person to an understanding about the nature of the God who made it.

and do we remember who was this god that made it?......thats right it was God the Son!.......Jesus our Lord!


So in other words, the things that are made can speak to our hearts and show us about Jesus Christ!






This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse ......and why I always ask about that verse "Excuse for what?"
The answer is that the universe and all the things that were made by the Lord Jesus Christ our Creator, show us Him, therefore none have an excuse for not believing in the Son, for the Son is the Creator and it is to Him and Him alone that the things that are made do testify.

For it is as Walter Martin says in the video I posted, that the lessor light will lead you to the greater light....
and let us remember that the light is all the same light, for that light is the light of Christ!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't really see a problem with that position. It is similar to mine. God DOES draw us (or CAN) through the universe/nature. That can be a step towards Christ, if we respond positively to it.

the lessor light leads us the the greater light........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't, personally, believe that we come to God on our own. God draws us. I think Alan believes that, as well.

We are not "free" to choose God, until he draws us.

and we have been drawn from the beginning....This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse.
No man can ever stand up and say, "I was never drawn".......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then you are saying that Alan doesn't believe in free will?

did a nurse drop you on your head when you were younger?....................

after all this time, after million and zillions of comments I have posted on this topic where in every chance I get I state clearly that man has "Free Will" you are yet asking this question?......

Billy, when you make this type of stuff up, do you do so convinced that "no one will notice"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

did a nurse drop you on your head when you were younger?....................

after all this time, after million and zillions of comments I have posted on this topic where in every chance I get I state clearly that man has "Free Will" you are yet asking this question?......

Billy, when you make this type of stuff up, do you do so convinced that "no one will notice"?

If you could give me a yes or a no to the following then that would clear it up for all of us.

Do you believe that man can do whatever he wants whenever he wants to? Yes or no?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and we have been drawn from the beginning....This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse.
No man can ever stand up and say, "I was never drawn".......

The problem Alan is that your belief that "we have been drawn from the beginning" goes against what is taught in John 6. But you don't want to listen to what is taught in that chapter.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse ......and why I always ask about that verse "Excuse for what?"
The answer is that the universe and all the things that were made by the Lord Jesus Christ our Creator, show us Him, therefore none have an excuse for not believing in the Son, for the Son is the Creator and it is to Him and Him alone that the things that are made do testify.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Alan you cut off the verse that tell us. Verse 20 tells us what the creation teaches us namely "God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


The creation reveals that there is a God but it doesn't teach us about Christ and that our salvation is through Him. This is revealed in direct revelation.

[alanmolstad]

where is the quotation of my "definition" from?.....what number post is it?....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

my definition? ........

you sure about that or are you just making more stuff up about me again?

I got to call you on another one, because the quotation of mine that you have posted above just does not really sound like something I would have said on my own.
The use of the word "volition" ???????

and the way your quotation of me ends with the statement, ".....I like that!"seems to suggest that I was commenting on another person's definition and not talking about how I would define the term myself.


Now I have posted about a million/zillion words on this topic, and I cant say right now I remember each word I have used, nor each context I have used such-n-such words within...
and Im sure that there are many quotations of mine that I may be unsure that if I wrote them or not?




But,

Billy,because you have a reputation of pulling things out of thin air and then attempting to pin your invented ideas on to others, you better list where you lifted that quotation of mine from so i can check it out for myself and confirm that you are quoting me in the correct context.....

Here is YOUR quote--post #117 on page 5. BTW if you do go back and change it there will be a time stamp and it will be after the time stamp on my post. If it is attributed to another poster you didn't make that clear in you post.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Alan you cut off the verse that tell us. Verse 20 tells us what the creation teaches us namely "God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


The creation reveals that there is a God but it doesn't teach us about Christ and that our salvation is through Him. This is revealed in direct revelation.

"God's" = Jesus Christ's!

[alanmolstad]

what post number is my definition from?...Ihave posted a great many things....Not all are easy to remember off-hand...thats why I wanted to just know where the quotation was from.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what post number is my definition from?

Alan the whole reason that I started this thread was to get people's definitions on how they are using the word "free will". I provided a dictionary definition. Perhaps you can set the record straight and give me the definition that you are comfortable with since you don't seem to claim the one above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"God's" = Jesus Christ's!

When a person looks at the universe does that person know that Jesus died on the cross and that the only way to be saved is to place your trust in Jesus that he paid for your sins?

[alanmolstad]

page 5?........

Somethin's not right about this.....I do not think on that page I gave my definition...and I doubt that would be my definition anyway.....just does not sound like something I would think, or the wording I would use....

I better check out this claim made abut my definition right now!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is YOUR quote--post #117 on page 5. .

...ok,,,lets have a look at that

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

hmmmm?.....sounds to me like Im just commenting on another person's post.....

What is posted just before my post?.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, I think it's possible (although, I don't know HOW) that Billy is misunderstanding your use of the term "free will".

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind.

I don't even believe we have "that" kind of free will. I think God does try to influence us, in that he draws us and gives us reasons to believe (even if it's just His creation-nature). He entices us (as you have said), so that, hopefully, we wil be influenced in the positive to turn to Him.

Calvinists take that a step too far and claim that we are "unwilling" (not unable, but unwilling) to choose God, until or unless God makes a drastic change in our nature (regeneration).

So, I think Billy is coming from the idea that we are "able"...we are just not "willing"?

But, I will be happy for him to speak for himself. I really don't like it when people try to speak for me, unless they are directly quoting me.

haha......caught you!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

So a man can do anything that he wants whenever he wants and this is free of any divine intervention?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if I ever used the term "voluntary choice" let me know....but I doubt it...
I doubt it because it's clearly inaccurate as far as describing what i have said about Free Will...


it's odd too, for I have posted tons and tons of words on what free Will means....and yet you had to pull your own meaning out of thin air ?

It's kinda a pattern with you it seems......to pull crazy **** out of thin air and then turn around and try to pin your invented ideas onto other people.....You got caught doing this very same thing over and over on this topic even back there at the early start it seems.

I was on to you then just as Im on to your games now...haha,,,,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

haha......caught you!

Caught me? Huh? I posted YOUR post. In fact in the very next post you add to her definition even more. Let's look at post #117 and #118

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like tha Libby...that is much in agreement with my own views.

Its not just about being able to make a choice that you want, its about not being interfered with...

its the "Free" in Free Will that is the most key thing to understand.

You have back to back posts and you were in agreement with Libby. You even said "I like that!" And in the next post immediately following you said "that is much in agreement with my own views." And you didn't hold back you went even further when you added "Its not just about being able to make a choice that you want, its about not being interfered with"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It's kinda a pattern with you it seems......to pull crazy **** out of thin air and then turn around and try to pin your invented ideas onto other people.....You got caught doing this very same thing over and over on this topic even back there at the early start it seems.

I was on to you then just as Im on to your games now...haha,,,,

Alan I have repeatedly asked you to define the term "free will". That was the point of this entire thread. I have given you a dictionary definition and you didn't like that. I have quoted your posts in which you seem to agree with Libby's definition and then you add to it in your very next post. I honestly believe that you are incapable of giving me a straight forward definition.

[alanmolstad]

my definition is found back at the very start of this topic.....perhaps on the first page of it?.....I think around post number #25 or so.


Billy you go on and on about a comment I made where I said that Libby's understanding of how Free Will works is "much like" my own...
and this is a true for Libby does have an understanding that is close and much like my own.....But it's still "her" understanding.

It's her ideas.....

I was commenting on how her ideas are walking in a direction much like where mine are going.

If I said that "Your house looks much like mine" it does not mean that I live with you!"

But my definition is not the same as hers, and the tip off is when you quoted what you were attempting to say was my definition and had me appear to use words that I simply dont use.

I use a rather limited number of words......and Libby makes use of a far wider list of words that are in her vocabulary.


So, in the future Billy, I suggest that when you want to refer people to "Alan's definition" that you might try to refer people to what is "Alan's" real definition......LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes!

all men are drawn to Christ.
The very universe is said to show God's nature to us, so there is no one on the earth that has ever lived that can say "God never drew me"

as long as the sun is burning, the world is turning, the birds are cherping, and the sea is....um..seaing. the things that are made by the creator do preach to us about the creator.

I like to define the word "draw" in this situation as meaning, "To attract"

Like a boy who wants to "attract' the attention of a nice girl...

and here is where I define what it means to have God draw you to himself.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

my definition is found back at the very start of this topic.....perhaps on the first page of it?.....I think around post number #25 or so.

I have no idea after all of these post how you are defining this word and I have asked you multiple times now. When I try to get it from your previous post you act like I am trying to trick you. Why is it so hard to define a simple English word? The only reason that I can think of is that once you define it then I will be able show you that by your own definition of this word man doesn't have free will.

[alanmolstad]

Im sure if you had paid attention you would have not missed it where I give everyone how I define the term Free Will.....check #25...