Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and here is where I define what it means to have God draw you to himself.....

Then you are using the term "draw" in a different way that Jesus was using it in John 6. Because in John 6 there were those who clearly saw the universe and heard Jesus' message and saw miracles that he performed--yet they were unable to come to Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice.

even my dog and cat can do that.


its about the freedom to choise and not being forced to decide one thing over the other.

free to decide.....free to make up your own mind....freedom to change your mind too.....freedom to repent.....nothing set in stone.....

here is where I begin to teach on how Free Will works in our lives and within the concept of the Lord's powerful sovereignty over His universe.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so free willnis not jusst the ability to make a choice......but that is part of it.


and free will is not just about feelings......but that is connected to it.


but its about being truly free of will.
to be truly free of force......to not be bound.....not just to feel free. but to truly be free.

this next post i go into more of what Free Will means to us and what it is and is not....for a lot of people claim things about the term that are simply not correct

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im sure if you had paid attention you would have not missed it where I give everyone how I define the term Free Will.....check #25...

Here is post #25 and you are defining the term "free will"

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its 2:30 here......im on my phone.......
im still in bed.......wife cant sleep and is keeping me awake......

billy why.........you know billy i have posted so much on this topic already that anyone has a doubt what free will means.....


free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

will - means you thinking mind

So is this your official definition of "free will"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then you are using the term "draw" .....

We had to study Free Will back in Bible school, and as we did I had a chance to read the teachings of Martin Luther on how God "draws' men to himself.
I believe what I remember of Luther's teaching is that the word "draw' has the given context in the text of being like how a person that likes another will do things to "attract' the other person......to woo the other person...to "draw" them into a closer relationship....

I believe one of the images is that a boy sees a girl across the room that he likes and wants to get to know better, so he does things that he will hope will "attract" the attention and interest of the girl.

[alanmolstad]

Free Will

Free = not a slave......

Will = the thinking mind


(more or less about the same definition I gave you at the start of this topic when i was first asked to define the term and i did right away....even when the hour was much too early to be thinking past getting some sleep)

[alanmolstad]

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
By this quote what I talking about is the tendency of many who hate the term "Free Will" to switch the definition around so that when I say "Free Will" they only hear "ability to make a choice"

They do this because they hate the term "Free Will" so much that they hope to get everyone to stop using the term by switching it over to mean something else that it actually does not mean.

But here I point out that it's not just about being able to make a choice between two things, for even animals have that simple ability.
You see, Free Will is all about the Freedom you have to make a choice that is not under some type of pressure.
the example I give is to think of a guy who walks into a bank and demands all the money.
At first glance we think this guy is a normal Bank Robber, and so treat him as someone who is guilty of breaking the law and so find him guilty.
But what if later we learn that the guy had been kidnapped and had a bomb strapped to his chest and was told that unless he goes into the bank and walks out with all the money he will get bown up along with everyone else in the bank?

Then in this case we understand that in this context the guy is "not guilty" because we understand that his decision to walk in and rob the bank was made "under duress".

What is the difference then?.....the difference is that we believe the person lacked "Free Will" to make a choice.
He still made a choice...he still walked into a bank and robbed it....
But we dont believe he is guilty of a crime because of a lack of Free Will to make a decision to rob the bank or not....

In other words, if I force your finger to pull a trigger, you are not responsible for the gun going off.





"It's about the freedom to choose and not being forced to decide one thing over the other."
In this quote I think Im talking about the reason we are held to answer for our actions.
The reason we are is that we have the freedom and the free will to decide for ourselves if we will believe or not.

The fact that there is a "Hell" means that we must have Free Will......

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
<SNIP>...

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

Then I submit that you are changing the definitions.

As to my previous point about free will and animals, I submit this as proof that I am correct.

[alanmolstad]

again,
My point is that some people try to maintain that Free Will is just the same as being able to make a simple decision.
But I argue against that limited understanding of the term because I don't believe it carries the full context of being truly "Free" that you need to keep in mind when you are talking about "FREE will"

I also point out that even animals have the ability to make simple decisions, yet we don't believe them to have Free Will due to the power of instinct over their whole lives.
This is why when i talk about the correct understanding of Free Will I always make sure people understand that it means to be truly "free' and not a "slave" of someone or something else that is pressuring you to decide one thing over another.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

By cleansing our heart and placing a new spirit within us (being born again)

I see the problem or difference in the way we perceive God's "drawing". I noticed this before, but had forgotten about it.

You seem to equate "drawing" with regeneration. So, anyone who is drawn by the Father is also regenerated by the drawing?

I do understand how you come to that, especially considering John 6:44.

I am not seeing the Father's drawing as regeneration. I see it as an enticement, an attraction given by God's grace. Some will respond, some will not. Some will be regenerated, some will not.

[alanmolstad]

libby...I have noticed this same thing too with Calvinists,,,,they tend to have a need to push regeneration in front of faith....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

libby...I have noticed this same thing too with Calvinists,,,,they tend to have a need to push regeneration in front of faith....

Yes.

Found this site (there are several) on the differences between "order of salvation" for Arminians and Calvinists.

Arminian ordo salutis:

Prevenient grace
Faith
[Union with Christ]
Justification
Regeneration
Sanctification
Glorification

Calvinist ordo salutis:

Election/Predestination (unconditional)
Regeneration
Faith
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

http://arminianperspectives.wordpres...arative-study/

[Libby]

Saw this on Facebook. I liked it. What do you think?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I am not seeing the Father's drawing as regeneration. I see it as an enticement, an attraction given by God's grace. Some will respond, some will not. Some will be regenerated, some will not.

A couple of issues with that belief. First there are those who are unable to come to Christ in John 6. If every single person is drawn--by the creation and by Jesus' words--then all those mentioned in John 6 would be able to come to him, but that is not the case as stated by Jesus himself in John 6. Second those who are drawn are raised. It doesn't say all are drawn and some are raised.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by John T

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

It is really difficult for me to keep up with Alan's intellect so I play dumb, ah, I don't have to play dumb.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A couple of issues with that belief. First there are those who are unable to come to Christ in John 6. If every single person is drawn--by the creation and by Jesus' words--then all those mentioned in John 6 would be able to come to him, but that is not the case as stated by Jesus himself in John 6. Second those who are drawn are raised. It doesn't say all are drawn and some are raised.

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..

There are not "many" verses that say that God draws all men to Christ. In fact you or Alan haven't given me a single one. If you stick with what the Bible says the only conclusion you can make is that God does not draw all men all men to Christ.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..

There was that fifth grade teacher I really hated, so I don't think the old witch was draw by anything thing but crab apples, and sour mash.

Yes, the Scriptures tell us God loved the World and gave His Son, that whosoever .
The Scripture also tell us Jesus will draw all men to him, and it has, but not all men are not Saved.
The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

There was that fifth grade teacher I really hated, so I don't think the old witch was draw by anything thing but crab apples, and sour mash.

Yes, the Scriptures tell us God loved the World and gave His Son, that whosoever .
The Scripture also tell us Jesus will draw all men to him, and it has, but not all men are not Saved.
The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.

The point Christ was making with his work on the cross is that in the cross there is total freedom from sin....and this is the thing that attracts all men who have sin......


No, it does not mean that all men will complete the action of God's drawing them and believe in the cross of Christ.

But regardless the offer of salvation goes out to all men,regardless of if they later believe or not...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

It is really difficult for me to keep up with Alan's intellect so I play dumb, ah, I don't have to play dumb.

You have done something that no other member of this forum has been able to do.....You listed my name "Alan" in the same sentence with the word "intellect"

[alanmolstad]

God draws all men to the cross though the Son.

All that we can ever learn of the father is give us in the Son.
nothing the Son does is on his own.....the Son can draw no one to himself unless he sees the father drawing all men to Himself.

Thus when we read that the Son draws all men to Himself we know that it is only because the Son sees the father drawing all men to Himself....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The point Christ was making with his work on the cross is that in the cross there is total freedom from sin....and this is the thing that attracts all men who have sin......
.

You said --"the thing that attracts all men who have sin"

Men are not attracted to God in their natural state. Only after God changes them do they come to Christ and place their faith in Him.