Free Will

[alanmolstad]

I did post the meaning for you yesterday....its the definition I am most familiar with...and in my own words too...

[alanmolstad]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...603#post156603

post #87

[alanmolstad]

so Free Will is not just the ability to make a choice ...its not just picking things to do that we want to do,,,it's not just doing things our heart tells us we want to do....

Rather Free Will is the genuine freedom to decide for ourselves the path we shall walk.
The real and actual freedom of thought....the actual freedom of choice.
No force being applied to you to force your choice, no control by someone else over your choice so that you must conform to someone else's destiny for you.

So in the real world...Free Will means that when you face a choice between turning to the left or turning to the right, you could have picked either way...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so yes....it is as I always have said...(and James seems to also agree with me on this point too)

Man has free will and God is sovereign.

free will means what it says>
free- not a slave
will - the thinking mind...mental resolution , self-determination

So this is your definition. Fair enough. So you are not going with the dictionary definition but rather using the term "free will" to mean voluntary choices. If this is how you are defining this word then I will use the same definition. Since this is the definition that we are going to use then man has free will because man does make voluntary choices.

[Billyray]

Using Alan's definition of free will which means making voluntary choices the unregenerate man according to Calvinism has free will.

[Libby]

Can man voluntarily, of his own "free choice", choose God, in your opinion?

I would think the answer for a Calvinist should be "no".

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So this is your definition. Fair enough. So you are not going with the dictionary definition but rather using the term "free will" to mean voluntary choices. If this is how you are defining this word then I will use the same definition. Since this is the definition that we are going to use then man has free will because man does make voluntary choices.

The free part is what is key....

Not just feeling free...not just acting free...but truly free.

unless you are free to express your will, you are no better than a robot....or a delusional fool....
There is no merit in thinking you are free, but your not actually.
There is no merit in making decisions based on your own ideas if it turns out you were just programed and following a script.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Can man voluntarily, of his own "free choice", choose God, in your opinion?

I would think the answer for a Calvinist should be "no".

The answer is "yes"....

That's the whole point of outreach..That we can present the Gospel to people and that they have within them right now the ability to respond.


So we are not talking just about a form of "voluntary" decision making....we are talking about being truly and undeniably free.
that no plan is controlling your actions.
That nothing is predetermined and forcing you to choose things...

Free Will means you are no one's slave....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Can man voluntarily, of his own "free choice", choose God, in your opinion?

I would think the answer for a Calvinist should be "no".

Using Alan's definition of free will--which means voluntary choice--a man certainly has the choice or free will to accept or reject Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Using Alan's definition of free will--which means voluntary choice--a man certainly has the choice or free will to accept or reject Christ.

if I ever used the term "voluntary choice" let me know....but I doubt it...
I doubt it because it's clearly inaccurate as far as describing what i have said about Free Will...


it's odd too, for I have posted tons and tons of words on what free Will means....and yet you had to pull your own meaning out of thin air ?

[alanmolstad]

Libby....you are so right about these guys.....They make things up.....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Using Alan's definition of free will--which means voluntary choice--a man certainly has the choice or free will to accept or reject Christ.

What is your definition of free will, Billy?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby....you are so right about these guys.....They make things up.....

I don't think Billy is making anything up, but he is using your definition in a way that I am not really understanding.

[alanmolstad]

so Free Will is not just the ability to make a Voluntary choice ...its not just picking things to do that we want to do,,,it's not just doing things our heart tells us we want to do....

Rather Free Will is the genuine freedom to decide for ourselves the path we shall walk.
The real and actual freedom of thought....the actual freedom of choice.
No force being applied to you to force your choice, no control by someone else over your choice so that you must conform to someone else's destiny for you.

So in the real world...Free Will means that when you face a choice between turning to the left or turning to the right, you could have picked either way...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think Billy is making anything up, but he is using your definition in a way that I am not really understanding.

You tell me where I said the term "voluntary" and you might have a point....but as that term is not correctly talking about how the term Free Will is defined, I doubt anyone can find me using the word at all.....ever.....

It would be like saying the Cross was made of candy.....it would be inaccurate

[Libby]

Yeah, I think it's possible (although, I don't know HOW) that Billy is misunderstanding your use of the term "free will".

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind.

I don't even believe we have "that" kind of free will. I think God does try to influence us, in that he draws us and gives us reasons to believe (even if it's just His creation-nature). He entices us (as you have said), so that, hopefully, we wil be influenced in the positive to turn to Him.

Calvinists take that a step too far and claim that we are "unwilling" (not unable, but unwilling) to choose God, until or unless God makes a drastic change in our nature (regeneration).

So, I think Billy is coming from the idea that we are "able"...we are just not "willing"?

But, I will be happy for him to speak for himself. I really don't like it when people try to speak for me, unless they are directly quoting me.

[alanmolstad]

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

[alanmolstad]

I like tha Libby...that is much in agreement with my own views.

Its not just about being able to make a choice that you want, its about not being interfered with...

its the "Free" in Free Will that is the most key thing to understand.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What is your definition of free will, Billy?

As with all other words that I use which is what they actually mean. For some reason people on this board want to make up their own definitions.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind.

OK. Let's try your definition out. Those who are unregenerate freely choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ thus they have free will.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

OK. Those who can come to Christ do not have free will because it requires that God draws them to Him first.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

As with all other words that I use which is what they actually mean. For some reason people on this board want to make up their own definitions.

So, the dictionary definition?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

So, the dictionary definition?

Sure and I gave Alan the Merriam dictionary definition on the first page of this thread. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Out of curiosity when you talk do to someone in conversion do you speak words and use a different definition than found in dictionaries for those words?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK. Let's try your definition out. Those who are unregenerate freely choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ thus they have free will.

Yeah, I see where you are going with this, again.

Like I said, in my previous post, I can't go that far, as to say we have completely, unfettered free will. We are subject to our sin nature, very often...and we need the grace of God and his drawing us, to even become interested.

But, I still believe our will is involved. He draws, we respond. He draws a little more, we respond. If we continue to respond positively, he will continue to draw us to Him. If we reject His drawing....we will move further away, until we don't even notice it anymore.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure and I gave Alan the Merriam dictionary definition on the first page of this thread. Here it is again.


Out of curiosity when you talk do to someone in conversion do you speak words and use a different definition than found in dictionaries for those words?

No, I don't.