Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God draws all men to the cross though the Son.
.

What verse says that God draws ALL men to Christ?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

What about those in verse 36 who followed Christ, heard his teachings, and saw his miracles--they didn't believe in Christ because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There are not "many" verses that say that God draws all men to Christ. In fact you or Alan haven't given me a single one. If you stick with what the Bible says the only conclusion you can make is that God does not draw all men all men to Christ.

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

so true Libby....its the way God is,,its His nature to love all the world...

All are drawn to the cross of christ, but not all respond to the light from heaven they receive...

But all do receive such light, for this is the reason the Bible teaches that no man has an excuse.....for the very world itself preaches to the world of men about the creator..

and let us never forget that the Creator is the Lord Jesus Christ!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What verse says that God draws ALL men to Christ?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

What about those in verse 36 who followed Christ, heard his teachings, and saw his miracles--they didn't believe in Christ because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

Who are those that are given? And, why are they given?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.

Amen!!!!!!!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so true Libby....its the way God is,,its His nature to love all the world...

All are drawn to the cross of christ, but not all respond to the light from heaven they receive...

But all do receive such light, for this is the reason the Bible teaches that no man has an excuse.....for the very world itself preaches to the world of men about the creator..

and let us never forget that the Creator is the Lord Jesus Christ!

That's right.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

Alan claims (and you seem to agree) that God draws ALL men to Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach that and you or Alan haven't given a single verse that supports that he does.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Who are those that are given? And, why are they given?

They are the elect and all that are given will come to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?

[Billyray]

John 12
16 His disciples did not understand these things at first, but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things had been written about him and had been done to him.
17 The crowd that had been with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to bear witness.
18 The reason why the crowd went to meet him was that they heard he had done this sign.
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”

Does the phrase "the WORLD has gone after him" mean every single person has gone after Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?

Do you really think God would be "just" in saving "no one", after sacrificing his only Son?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

bump for our new guest

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you really think God would be "just" in saving "no one", after sacrificing his only Son?

God would be just in not saving anyone.

Let's look at a judge who judges 10 murderers. Would it be just to sentence all 10 of them to life in prison?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . ."Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign. . ."

Romans 9
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You say God is Sovereign. What does that mean as it relates to these verses in Romans 9? What was God's purpose for Pharaohs life?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

Luke 2:1 And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”


Does "the world" mean every single person?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

In the OT God had a "chosen" group of true believers in the coming Messiah. How do you see that as any different?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God would be just in not saving anyone.

Let's look at a judge who judges 10 murderers. Would it be just to sentence all 10 of them to life in prison?

No, I'm not going there with you, again, because it is not comparable to what God has done for us.

Just answer my question. Do you think it would be "just" to NOT save ANYONE, after the Father sacrificed His only Son, as atonement for our sins?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In the OT God had a "chosen" group of true believers in the coming Messiah. How do you see that as any different?

It's different because Christ said he would draw ALL people to himself, when he was raised up. God opened the doors for the whole world, if they would simply come to Him, when he draws them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Just answer my question. Do you think it would be "just" to NOT save ANYONE, after the Father sacrificed His only Son, as atonement for our sins?

Would it be just to punish every single person for their sins? The answer is yes. However this wouldn't require the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the elect shows that He plans to save some--but not all.

If God saved every single person then this would not show justice. If God didn't save anyone this would be just. God's plan shows both justice and mercy. Justice by punishing sin and mercy by saving those who don't deserve to be saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's different because Christ said he would draw ALL people to himself, when he was raised up. God opened the doors for the whole world, if they would simply come to Him, when he draws them.

Christ said that he would draw all people when he went to the cross--not before. What about all of those who died prior to the cross? That is why your verse doesn't work to support your position because not every single person would be drawn. As we discussed earlier this verse in context with the surrounding verse is speaking about people groups--not individuals. While Christ was alive his message was to the Jews--not to the Gentiles. After his death his message spread to all people groups namely the Gentiles.

Libby you still can't show me a single verse that says that the Father draws all men to Christ. The verses that we do have that speak about God drawing men to Christ show just the opposite--that the Father doesn't draw all men to Christ. Read John 6 again. In order to hold your position you must reject what Christ taught in this chapter.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You say God is Sovereign. What does that mean as it relates to these verses in Romans 9? What was God's purpose for Pharaohs life?

To be "sovereign" is to be the king...to have your will be the law.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does "the world" mean every single person?

At John 3:16 it means both the living and the dead....both the already born and the yet to be born.....both they who believe and they who do not.


its like the verse, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" for the "we" in this verse is all people. because there were no other people that were non-sinners when Jesus died.

We = all, all of us, the whole world, every one of us,


its as Walter Martin taught = the death of Christ is "sufficient" to cover the sins of all people, yet it is "efficient" in covering the sins of they who respond. So there is no one ever on this Earth that the blood of Christ was not "sufficient " to cover their sin. For "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that anyone WHO BELIEVES in him should not die"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?

Did God love Esau?
I would answer "yes"....


It's the same as when Jesus tells us that to follow him you must "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother,..."

if you were to ask me, "Do you think Jesus wants you to LOVE your parents?" I would say "yes"




So this means?.....
It means that in the Bible you do find a lot of use of hyperbole (see - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole )

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

At John 3:16 it means both the living and the dead....both the already born and the yet to be born.....both they who believe and they who do not.


its like the verse, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" for the "we" in this verse is all people. because there were no other people that were non-sinners when Jesus died.

We = all, all of us, the whole world, every one of us,


its as Walter Martin taught = the death of Christ is "sufficient" to cover the sins of all people, yet it is "efficient" in covering the sins of they who respond. So there is no one ever on this Earth that the blood of Christ was not "sufficient " to cover their sin. For "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that anyone WHO BELIEVES in him should not die"

Why did you say you were universalist, would save alot of time.

[Libby]

What Alan is saying is not universalism. Universalists believe that God/Jesus will "save" everyone, somehow. Alan and I are simply saying that everyone is drawn and has the "opportunity" to be saved. Not that everyone "will" be saved.