Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, I see where you are going with this, again.

Like I said, in my previous post, I can't go that far, as to say we have completely, unfettered free will. We are subject to our sin nature, very often...and we need the grace of God and his drawing us, to even become interested.

But, I still believe our will is involved. He draws, we respond. He draws a little more, we respond. If we continue to respond positively, he will continue to draw us to Him. If we reject His drawing....we will move further away, until we don't even notice it anymore.

The bottom line is that we don't have free will as defined by the dictionary.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Like I said, in my previous post, I can't go that far, as to say we have completely, unfettered free will. We are subject to our sin nature, very often...and we need the grace of God and his drawing us, to even become interested.

But, I still believe our will is involved. He draws, we respond. He draws a little more, we respond. If we continue to respond positively, he will continue to draw us to Him. If we reject His drawing....we will move further away, until we don't even notice it anymore.

I think it is human nature to believe that we get what we work for. If we work hard then we deserve a greater reward. If we don't work hard then we shouldn't be rewarded. I see this carrying over to religious beliefs because it has a sense of fairness to humans. The problem is that the Bible doesn't teach this--in fact the Bible goes out of its way to show the opposite. Libby I think at some point you have to just trust what the Bible says even though in some cases it goes against your human ***essment. This is easy to do in theory but putting this into practice is a little bit more difficult.

[Libby]

The bottom line is that we don't have free will as defined by the dictionary.

Have to agree with that.

But, we do have enough freedom of choice to determine whether or not we will turn to God, when He draws us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Have to agree with that.

But, we do have enough freedom of choice to determine whether or not we will turn to God, when He draws us.

I believe that we all have choices so I guess I have to agree with you on this point.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think it is human nature to believe that we get what we work for. If we work hard then we deserve a greater reward. If we don't work hard then we shouldn't be rewarded. I see this carrying over to religious beliefs because it has a sense of fairness to humans. The problem is that the Bible doesn't teach this--in fact the Bible goes out of its way to show the opposite. Libby I think at some point you have to just trust what the Bible says even though in some cases it goes against your human ***essment. This is easy to do in theory but putting this into practice is a little bit more difficult.

I know that the Bible teaches that salvation is not by works. I accept that. It is just very difficult to accept that God would need to byp*** even our will to accept or reject Him. I have not been able to reconcile that in any reasonable way. I thought for along time that it was a matter of faith, but I think it is more than that...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believe that we all have choices so I guess I have to agree with you on this point.

Yeah, choices....but, not a choice to come to God without some heavy duty ***istance...right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, choices....but, not a choice to come to God without some heavy duty ***istance...right?

But you believe that a person can't come to Christ on his own either without heavy duty ***istance.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know that the Bible teaches that salvation is not by works. I accept that. It is just very difficult to accept that God would need to byp*** even our will to accept or reject Him. I have not been able to reconcile that in any reasonable way. I thought for along time that it was a matter of faith, but I think it is more than that...

Both the unregenerate and the regenerate have a will and they exercise that will by the choices that they make.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you believe that a person can't come to Christ on his own either without heavy duty ***istance.

No, not "heavy duty" ***istance. Calvinists believe that man can't choose God in his natural state and needs a complete overhaul.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Both the unregenerate and the regenerate have a will and they exercise that will by the choices that they make.

You mean by their coinciding desires. That natural man is unwilling to choose God, because he simply doesn't have a desire to do so.

But, once God starts drawing him...? Some start to have a change of heart. It doesn't always happen instantly, but little by little...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You mean by their coinciding desires. That natural man is unwilling to choose God, because he simply doesn't have a desire to do so.

But, once God starts drawing him...? Some start to have a change of heart. It doesn't always happen instantly, but little by little...

Unregenerate man

Ephesians 2
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Those who are unregenerate choose to gratify the cravings of the flesh. Note that this is talking about those who are elect who have not been regenerated at this point. They are choosing to do what they desire to do i.e. they are following their own will.


Regenerate Man

Ephesians 2
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Here are the same guys after regeneration. They make choices but in this case their choices will be different because they are different i.e. they have been regenerated.

[Libby]

Ephesians...

That's the book that dragged me into Calvinism.

I wonder how Arminians interpret those verses?

I need to study more, Billy. You've shown me that, if nothing else.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The bottom line is that we don't have free will as defined by the dictionary.

wrong!...

Once again you are Wrong!

We do have free will....

[alanmolstad]

Free will allows us to love......it allows us to return love.

Free will is what the outreach of the church is based around.

Free Will is why all are called...all are drawn to the Son....

Free will is why we are able to hear, listen, and put into action the plan of salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

wrong!...

Once again you are Wrong!

We do have free will....

We do have free will as you have defined free will but remember that you have redefined the word to simply mean choice. But we don't have free will as defined by the dictionary.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

How come when I say that all the Calvinists gets so upset?

Maybe because you seem to over state the free will of man and understand the sovereignty of God.. God is sovereign even over our free will.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We do have free will as you have defined free will but remember that you have redefined the word to simply mean choice. But we don't have free will as defined by the dictionary.

Wrong....I have never defined it as just choice....

Do you even bother anymore reading posts?
Or do you just start putting stuff out of thin air right away?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

God is sovereign even over our free will.. IHS jim

again....I say the same thing and the Calvinists have a cow...

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again....I say the same thing and the Calvinists have a cow...

Alan you have been saying that God has nothing to do with our free will.. I say that He created it, He controls it.. That is how free it is.. It is as free and His sovereignty allows.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

ask an Arminian.....
i dontknow any however

Originally Posted by James Banta

Alan you have been saying that God has nothing to do with our free will.. I say that He created it, He controls it.. That is how free it is.. It is as free and His sovereignty allows.. IHS jim

WRONG!

you and billy both pull things of thin air (or some place well hidden) and paint both Libby and I with false colors......claimig we believe things that in truth you only nvented..

We are going to start calling you the " BROTHERS FALFE-WITNESS"

[Libby]

From the dictionary definition, the second part of Webster's definition is the part that Billy is saying we do not really have (and I have to agree, we do not)..

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

That's the sticky part, right there. Our "free will" is, often, affected by a prior cause (sin) and does get, at least, "some" ***istance, when God starts drawing us.

So, we cannot really say we have "free will" in the second version of Webster's definition.

We do have the ability to make choices...and I think we maintain the ability to choose God, when he draws us. And, I believe we can choose him even before regeneration, through His grace and attracting quality.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

From the dictionary definition, the second part of Webster's definition is the part that Billy is saying we do not really have (and I have to agree, we do not)..



That's the sticky part, right there. Our "free will" is, often, affected by a prior cause (sin) and does get, at least, "some" ***istance, when God starts drawing us.

So, we cannot really say we have "free will" in the second version of Webster's definition.

We do have the ability to make choices...and I think we maintain the ability to choose God, when he draws us. And, I believe we can choose him even before regeneration, through His grace and attracting quality.

I disagree with these definitions.. We have free will but that will is always subject to the sovereignty of God.. He didn't create us for us, He created us for Him.. He is in charge and nothing happens in this world that isn't at least in His permissive will.. Nothing happens in this world that He wasn't aware of as he laid the foundations of the world.. IHS jim

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes,,,,
God is not so weak that he has to first rob the person of their own Free Will just to carry out his will in their life!

That would be a silly type of god to trust...a god who gets nervous at the gifts he has given.....LOL
"Oh no, I gave them all Free Will and now they are stronger than I am!...What shall I ever do?"

That says ANY MAN has a 'free will' to choose God or not to choose him of one's own volition. I'll bet you cannot find ONE.

However I CAN show you scripture that says you are either a slave to sin, or to righteousness.

That CHRISTIANS were bought with a price and are no longer owned by satan.

So SHOW ME THE P***AGE that teaches the manmade theory that you have 'free will. . .'

You don't even have the 'free will' to disobey your spouse whenever you would like!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...out-Free-Will/

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

From the dictionary definition, the second part of Webster's definition is the part that Billy is saying we do not really have (and I have to agree, we do not)..



That's the sticky part, right there. Our "free will" is, often, affected by a prior cause (sin) and does get, at least, "some" ***istance, when God starts drawing us.

So, we cannot really say we have "free will" in the second version of Webster's definition.

We do have the ability to make choices...and I think we maintain the ability to choose God, when he draws us. And, I believe we can choose him even before regeneration, through His grace and attracting quality.

I agree with the majority of your post--I think that the only area we differ is on the timing of regeneration. The main reason that I started this thread was to try and get people thinking about how they are defining the term "free will" because a lot of people define this word differently (and most of the time different that the dictionary definition). Unless we understand how each person is defining this word we really can't come to an understanding of each others true position. BTW this happens a lot when discussing issues with lds because they use the same words as Christians but often times define them in a slightly different way.