Quick question

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Was there a more evil religious charlatan on this continent than Joseph Smith? Millions who followed his evil ways now find themselves cut off from eternal life.

How does the brain of a TBM work? To say Calvin was a devil and murderer, and over look Joseph Smith jr. Is beyond mental.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

How does the brain of a TBM work? To say Calvin was a devil and murderer, and over look Joseph Smith jr. Is beyond mental.

Exactly right! And John Calvin is an easy whipping boy for Mormons. Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never encountered any Mormon here who has cracked open a copy of Calvin's Ins***utes, or who has any idea of just how systematic his writings are. They simply mouth the words of their masters: "Calvinism is evil, God said so." That doesn't take any thinking or intellectual inquiry.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Exactly right! And John Calvin is an easy whipping boy for Mormons. Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never encountered any Mormon here who has cracked open a copy of Calvin's Ins***utes, or who has any idea of just how systematic his writings are. They simply mouth the words of their masters: "Calvinism is evil, God said so." That doesn't take any thinking or intellectual inquiry.

I am not one to give advice to a TBM, but if they asked, I'd tell them not to show their ignorance and to keep quiet about Calvin.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I am not one to give advice to a TBM, but if they asked, I'd tell them not to show their ignorance and to keep quiet about Calvin.

They might not accept that advice!

[Libby]

Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never heard that story before. Do you mind if I ask where you got it?

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I once spoke to a Reorganized Mormon about that very issue - she agreed that some in her group believe that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet - they totally reject D&C 132 for instance. Smith said so many crazy things, that I think they generally have the standard cop out ready: "That's not part of the standard works."

Being born and raised RLDS I can affirm what you said. That's what our line was, deny he ever practiced polygamy, no matter what the facts stated. I am not RLDS now, I was born again and gladly and gratefully seriving Jesus.

[Libby]

That's interesting, Gary. I know some ex-mormons who went over to Community of Christ, because they still believed in the Book of Mormon, but that church doesn't have all of the baggage that mainstream LDS has, with Brigham Young and all the rest.

I have read that Emma denied Joseph's polygamy to the very end. That poor woman.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's interesting, Gary. I know some ex-mormons who went over to Community of Christ, because they still believed in the Book of Mormon, but that church doesn't have all of the baggage that mainstream LDS has, with Brigham Young and all the rest.

I have read that Emma denied Joseph's polygamy to the very end. That poor woman.

Very true Libby. Denying the polygamy but trusting Joseph? sounds like desperation to me. And yes, I feel badly for Emma. Her father was right about Joseph. Hopefully her life with her 2nd husband was much happier.

[Libby]

Yes, I hope so, as well. If nothing else, her second marriage had to have been a much more peaceful existence. Joseph's life was full of drama and strife...mostly of his own making.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***. This has not happened with Smith. 2. With his involvement with the Occult, how can he even be a Christian? His life indicates he was not a Christian. 3. Given his conduct towards women, it is safe to say he was a first rate womanizer, again not a characteristic of a prophet of God. 4. Any one who gives doctrine that contradicts what God has already said in the Bible is not speaking for God. God is not a man that he should lie. He did not change his mind on the method of salvation, no matter how adamantly a "prophet" may say so. This is to demean the character, person, and power of almighty God. Also as any cult, disagreeing with the nature of God, of Jesus Christ, of the doctrine long established in the Bible for salvation, this is another sign that Joseph Smith is not to be trusted in any way shape or form. Let us not forget that the Bible is the oldest of the 4 books of the LDS, and it judges the BoM, PGP, and D&C. Hope this helps.

Gary

[RealFakeHair]

Gary biblelover, quote:Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***
Try explaining this one. Matthew 24:34? Do you think He missed this one?

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Gary biblelover, quote:Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***
Try explaining this one. Matthew 24:34? Do you think He missed this one?

Real, a true prophet is 100% not 99% 98% etc. This is why I said that.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Gary_Biblelover

Real, a true prophet is 100% not 99% 98% etc. This is why I said that.

How many true prophets do you know, Gary?

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

How many true prophets do you know, Gary?

The Bible features the work of a bunch of em

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Gary_Biblelover

The Bible features the work of a bunch of em

But you have never met one before, I have never met one, but who knows I am still open minded

[alanmolstad]

you test what they say by the scriptures....

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

Hard to say, there are some who believe that the Book of Mormon is true, yet have a problem believing JS was a prophet ... guess folks can believe just about anything they choose, there were those who were close to him that later stated he was no longer a prophet to God...

[Gary_Biblelover]

Here is the way we can tell, right from the lips of the almighty God himself:

Deut 18:20-22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Gary_Biblelover

Here is the way we can tell, right from the lips of the almighty God himself:

Deut 18:20-22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???

A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible? Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible?

Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.

http://ce.byu.edu/edweek/handouts/2006/20.pdf

The Writings of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
Victor L. Ludlow
BYU Education Week 2006 BYU

Isaiah P***ages in the Book of Mormon

Of all the prophetic writings available on the Br*** Plates of Laban, Isaiah is the major resource used throughout the Book of Mormon. About one-third of Isaiah’s sixty-six chapters are found in the Book of Mormon.
Two large blocks of Isaiah chapters (2-14 and 48-54) are scattered among four books (1Nephi, 2 Nephi, Mosiah, and 3 Nephi). In addition, Isaiah 29 is quoted in 2 Nephi.

The following chart shows where these twenty-one Isaiah chapters are found in the Book of Mormon:
Isaiah 2-14 in 2 Nephi 12-24 for 13 chapters
Isaiah 29 in 2 Nephi 27 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 48-49 in 1 Nephi 20-21 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 50-51 in 2 Nephi 7-8 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 52 in 3 Nephi 20 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 53 in Mosiah 14 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 54 in 3 Nephi 22 for 1 chapter

Additional Isaiah verses, mostly from the same chapters cited in the chart above (see italics below), are
scattered throughout the Book of Mormon:

Isa 5:26* in 2 Ne 29:2 Isa 11:4 in 2 Ne 30:9
Isa 11:5-9 in 2 Ne 30:11-15 Isa 11:11a* in 2 Ne 25:17a; 29:1b; cf 25:11
Isa 22:13* in 2 Ne 28:7-8 Isa 25:12* in 2 Ne 26:15
Isa 28:10,13* in 2 Ne 28:30 Isa 29:3-4* in 2 Ne 26:15-16
Isa 29:5* in 2 Ne 26:18 Isa 29:14a* in 1 Ne 14:7a; 22:8a; 2 Ne 25:17b; 29:1a
Isa 29:15a* in 2 Ne 28:9b Isa 29:21b* in 2 Ne 28:16a
Isa 40:3* in 1 Ne 10:8 Isa 45:18* in 1 Ne 17:36
Isa 49:22* in 1 Ne 22:8; 2 Ne 6:6 Isa 49:23a* in 1 Ne 22:8b; 2 Ne 10:9a
Isa 49:23 in 2 Ne 6:7 Isa 49:24-26 in 2 Ne 6:16-18
Isa 52:1a* in Moroni 10:31a Isa 52:1-2 in 2 Ne 8:24-25
Isa 52:7* in 1 Ne 13:37; Mosiah 15:14-18 Isa 52:7-10 in Mosiah 12:21-24
Isa 52:8-10 in Mosiah 15:29-31; 3 Ne 16:18-20 Isa 52:10* in 1 Ne 22:10-11
Isa 52:12* in 3 Ne 21:29 Isa 52:13-15* in 3 Ne 21:8-10
Isa 53:8,10* in Mosiah 15:10-11 Isa 54:2b* in Moroni 10:31a
Isa 55:1* in 2 Ne 26:25 Isa 55:1-2 in 2 Ne 9:50-51
* denotes the Isaiah p***ages which are paraphrased in the Book of Mormon.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?

Sure. Also note that the Book of Mormon that we have today is not the one that was originally written. Thousands of changes have been made.

Below is a site that discusses this very issue.

http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#full

Joseph's education

Joseph Smith did have limited formal education and that's often heralded as 'proof' that he could not have written the BOM. However most people do not know that Joseph's father, Joseph Smith, Sr., was a school teacher during the off season. Joseph's brother, Hyrum, worked as a school teacher during the off season also. One of his sisters may have also been a teacher at some point in her life. This wasn't a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

In the early 1800s few children were able to have a full education. Most children in rural America worked on farms and often had much of their education done at home. As Joseph Smith Sr. was an actual school teacher at various times in his life, he would be quite capable of teaching general education to his children, including Joseph. Joseph's mother, Lucy Smith, would undoubtedly help as well. Even Abraham Lincoln had a very limited formal education of only about one year, and Benjamin Franklin also had only one year of formal education. Look at the amazing things they wrote and accomplished.

Even today many people home-school their children. Would anyone say that these home-schooled children are uneducated? It's true that they do not have a formal education but for the most part, home-schooled children have similar, and in some cases superior, education than traditionally-schooled children.

Religious education

Young Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. Joseph also attended many protestant church services and studied the Bible in depth. According to Joseph Smith's mother he told her, back before the BOM came forth that,

"I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meetings in two years, if you should go all the time." [Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith, the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations (Liverpool: S. W. Richards, 1853), p. 90]

Critic's comment: If Joseph studied the Bible so well, is it any wonder that the BOM is so similar to the Bible? The LDS Gospel doctrine teachers often say that the BOM was translated from its original language into 17th century English. The English used in the 1830s certainly doesn't match the BOM language. The 'thees' and 'thous' were obviously put in to make the book sound more like The Holy Bible. One has to wonder why a document translated in the 19th century uses 17th century English.

Michael Quinn has made the best case for Joseph Smith's information environment. Joseph knew the Bible, Camp meetings, American antiquities, strategies of the war of 1812 and earlier American/Indian wars, and the strong anti-Masonic sentiments between 1826-1830 in his environment (Hyrum Smith was a Mason in NY, and belonged to a lodge). In other words, the VERY things that Joseph was most "schooled" in, he had observed from his own backyard so to speak--the VERY things that we find discussed in the Book of Mormon.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had. However, lack of education does not mean lack of intelligence or imagination. The original grammar and the errors in the BOM is what would be expected from someone with limited formal education.
An example of Joseph's writing from before he published the Book of Mormon is in the section below 'What about Emma Smith?'.
. ."

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.

7% if you really wanted to know!

[GolfingMormon]

Nice little oxymoronic comparison:

Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had.