Quick question

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

7% if you really wanted to know!

That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Nice little oxymoronic comparison:

Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had.

A person can be educated and still have poor grammar. I think that the point they were trying to make was that a formal education would have provided a little bit more grammar than what he received at home.

BTW do you take issue with the fact that he had family members who were teachers?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?

I hear this from Mormons all of the time. I take it from your question that you believe Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon. Why do you believe this?

[Billyray]

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.

According to his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, he was a creative storyteller as well:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.9

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.

Author Dan Vogel observed:
Certainly, Smith had less schooling than his wife, but he managed to write reasonably well. After examining several letters from the early period of Smith’s life (1831-32), historian Dale Morgan concluded that they exhibit “a flair for words, a measure of eloquence, and a sufficient degree of schooling.” William Smith [Joseph’s brother] challenged the view that his brother was “unlettered” as a “mistake,” remembering that Joseph “wrote [in] a plain intelligible hand.” Still, Smith’s talent lay not in correct orthography but, while telling a story, in his sense of narrative and ability to create memorable images.

The book Joseph dictated abounds with examples of his poor grammar and Yankee dialect as well as his penchant for digression, redundancy, and wordiness. Rarely are his characters’ inner moral conflicts reflected. Most often we encounter flat, uncomplicated, two- dimensional heroes and villains. Generally the plots are simple and frequently improbable. However, the point was not to produce a literary masterpiece, although there are occasional p***ages exhibiting the lyrical quality of romantic writers of the era as well as the rhetorical style of the area’s preachers.11

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital...rism_db003.htm

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A person can be educated and still have poor grammar. I think that the point they were trying to make was that a formal education would have provided a little bit more grammar than what he received at home.

BTW do you take issue with the fact that he had family members who were teachers?

Not at all, but do you really know and have studied the many moves that the family had made and the hardships they suffered.... interesting read, are you a ex-mormon?

[Libby]

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I hear this from Mormons all of the time. I take it from your question that you believe Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon. Why do you believe this?

Hear what? that JS and the truth that he was most likely not a born writer of Books... it take years of experience and learning how to ***emble historical fact, people, wars, weapons, animals and understand geology to be able to even begin to write such a amazing book.. its much easier to ***ume that what others have claimed then to try and imagine the actual reality of sitting down and writing some 500 pages in less than 3 months...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.

the truth be told......I think all Mormons are a bit nuts to believe squat from old joe Smith.....

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital...rism_db003.htm

Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Libby

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the truth be told......I think all Mormons are a bit nuts to believe squat from old joe Smith.....

Now isn't that divisive language ... nuts and squat instead of asking ... hey mormon, why do you believe the Book of Mormon is true? civil and polite...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..

Sandra mentioned that in her latest interview with John Dehlin. For starters, they first went to the RLDS, where the Book of Mormon was still considered scripture. The book is much more in line with the Bible, than the rest of the LDS works. They continued using the Book of Mormon, for awhile, even after they switched to mainstream. Sandra said, because it taught "One God"..so what's the problem? The problem mainly was that they hadn't run into a Pastor or anyone that could explain to them why they should drop the Book of Mormon. These people didn't know about all of the problems with the book (probably had never seen it or read it).

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

Did you know that the NT quoted from the OT and never gave credits .... at least JS in translating the scriptures from the Bible noted the authors... giving true credit where it was due ... how would that be plagiarizing????

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Libby

Sandra mentioned that in her latest interview with John Dehlin. For starters, they first went to the RLDS, where the Book of Mormon was still considered scripture. The book is much more in line with the Bible, than the rest of the LDS works. They continued using the Book of Mormon, for awhile, even after they switched to mainstream. Sandra said, because it taught "One God"..so what's the problem? The problem mainly was that they hadn't run into a Pastor or anyone that could explain to them why they should drop the Book of Mormon. These people didn't know about all of the problems with the book (probably had never seen it or read it).

Can you quote exactly what she said?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..

No offense, but that day has come. Even one of your Elders has said that people are leaving the church in droves, unlike anything they have seen, since the Kirtland era.

I think, anyone who reads the Book of Mormon, objectively, can clearly see that it is a work from the 19th century. There are tons of clues. Plus, there is no proof of any of the ancient civilizations mentioned in the book.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..

well........I doubt it.

i do not think that Mormonism was founded on the idea that the Book of Mormon had to be true....
in fact.....I remember hearing one time that a professor at BYU once was said to teach that even if none of the claims about Jesus coming to America nor the Jews made in Mormonism turn out to be true, it would not really matter, ......I think his point was that the over-all good that Mormons do justifies the Mormon church, even if Joe Smiths claims turn out to be all false,

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Libby

No offense, but that day has come. Even one of your Elders has said that people are leaving the church in droves, unlike anything they have seen, since the Kirtland era.

I think, anyone who reads the Book of Mormon, objectively, can clearly see that it is a work from the 19th century. There are tons of clues. Plus, there is no proof of any of the ancient civilizations mentioned in the book.

Can you state why the are leaving? is it for the Book of Mormon, JS, doctrine, to hard to live, ***hing, long Sunday Meetings, callings, etc, etc...

[Billyray]

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.

According to his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, he was a creative storyteller as well:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.9

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.

Author Dan Vogel observed:
Certainly, Smith had less schooling than his wife, but he managed to write reasonably well. After examining several letters from the early period of Smith’s life (1831-32), historian Dale Morgan concluded that they exhibit “a flair for words, a measure of eloquence, and a sufficient degree of schooling.” William Smith [Joseph’s brother] challenged the view that his brother was “unlettered” as a “mistake,” remembering that Joseph “wrote [in] a plain intelligible hand.” Still, Smith’s talent lay not in correct orthography but, while telling a story, in his sense of narrative and ability to create memorable images.

The book Joseph dictated abounds with examples of his poor grammar and Yankee dialect as well as his penchant for digression, redundancy, and wordiness. Rarely are his characters’ inner moral conflicts reflected. Most often we encounter flat, uncomplicated, two- dimensional heroes and villains. Generally the plots are simple and frequently improbable. However, the point was not to produce a literary masterpiece, although there are occasional p***ages exhibiting the lyrical quality of romantic writers of the era as well as the rhetorical style of the area’s preachers.11

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital...rism_db003.htm

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..

Any comment on the content of the post or would you rather p***?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Now isn't that divisive language ... nuts and squat instead of asking ... hey mormon, why do you believe the Book of Mormon is true? civil and polite...

No...Mormonism is a joke......
Mormonism today seems overly concerned with allowing their leader Smith to chase skirts..

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well........I doubt it.

i do not think that Mormonism was founded on the idea that the Book of Mormon had to be true....
in fact.....I remember hearing one time that a professor at BYU once was said to teach that even if none of the claims about Jesus coming to America nor the Jews made in Mormonism turn out to be true, it would not really matter, ......I think his point was that the over-all good that Mormons do justifies the Mormon church, even if Joe Smiths claims turn out to be all false,

I doubt it also, the Book of Mormon is true, of course that my personal conviction...

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No...Mormonism is a joke......
Mormonism today seems overly concerned with allowing their leader Smith to chase skirts..

Okay, I will give you one more opportunity to converse, if not you will be the deciding factor whether or not I put you on ignore... choose

[alanmolstad]

You see this in other CULTS that make a big prediction that the world will end on a date.....well when the date comes and nothing happens and everyone understands clearly that the whole date setting thing was a bunch of ****, you would think that this would be the proof that people would need to drop out of the CULT....but thats not what happens many times.

many times (Like with the JW's) when a prediction is shown to be false, it just makes members of the CULT turn to the CULT even more for guidance.....

That is why I think that if one day there came forth 100% proof the Smith just invented the whole book of Mormon just to earn a few extra bucks and cheat on his wife, it would not really mean much to most Mormons.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Can you state why the are leaving? is it for the Book of Mormon, JS, doctrine, to hard to live, ***hing, long Sunday Meetings, callings, etc, etc...

For me it was a combination of several things but ultimately it was the fact that Mormonism doesn't line up with Biblical Christianity.

[alanmolstad]

I think it was back in the 90s and there was this one person who claimed to be from a different star system...
This person had a bunch of followers, and told them that on a date they all would be "beamed" to a star ship....

The date came and went...and while you would think this would wake people up to understand their leader was a total fake, it really did not cause any members to drop out of the CULT at all....

people that are so invested in something like a CULT will find ways to keep believing no matter what.....They will find a way to justify anything.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

I doubt it also, the Book of Mormon is true, of course that my personal conviction...

I am sure you believe that the Book of Mormon is true or you would not likely remain Mormon (I say "not likely" because there are some LDS who don't believe that Book of Mormon is true and they remain Mormon--mostly for social reasons).

BTW other than your spiritual witness as outlined in Moroni 10:3-5 what are some of the more convincing reasons why you believe that the Book of Mormon is true?