Quick question

[alanmolstad]

People become invested in a CULT....

To them its not a matter of what is true or not about their teachings...its more about how the CULT has changed them, and helped them.....

This is why its rather moot to try to show a member of a CULT that its a false god they are worshiping....because to them its family...and you stick with your family regardless of the trouble...

[Libby]

That is true for many.....but, not all.

I wouldn't say people are not interested in the truth, though. They just believe they already have it.

[GolfingMormon]

alanmolstad;158698]You see this in other CULTS that make a big prediction that the world will end on a date.....well when the date comes and nothing happens and everyone understands clearly that the whole date setting thing was a bunch of ****, you would think that this would be the proof that people would need to drop out of the CULT....but thats not what happens many times.

many times (Like with the JW's) when a prediction is shown to be false, it just makes members of the CULT turn to the CULT even more for guidance.....

That is why I think that if one day there came forth 100% proof the Smith just invented the whole book of Mormon just to earn a few extra bucks and cheat on his wife, it would not really mean much to most Mormons......





Noted...

[GolfingMormon]

[QUOTE=Billyray;158701]

BTW other than your spiritual witness as outlined in Moroni 10:3-5 what are some of the more convincing reasons why you believe that the Book of Mormon is true?



I was a orthodox Christian, I read the BOM and payed more attention to the story and message than the anti critics talking points... why get muddled down in speculation, if you guys can come up with the silver bullet of death, then please do so....

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Any comment on the content of the post or would you rather p***?

Jerald and Sandra Tanner are nice folks ... I understand that Jerald p***ed away not too long ago, I imagine he is now where he can get the final say on the truth or fiction of Mormonism... as for the content, well we must consider the source .... if they are right then one would believe that a very young man, who was family schooled, had poor communication skills wrote the Book of Mormon which has successfully help grow our membership to over 17 million now...

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

People become invested in a CULT....

To them its not a matter of what is true or not about their teachings...its more about how the CULT has changed them, and helped them.....

This is why its rather moot to try to show a member of a CULT that its a false god they are worshiping....because to them its family...and you stick with your family regardless of the trouble...

Most of them have also read the Book of Mormon cover to cover which is more than most Forum Poster can say, yet they can criticize it as if they are experts ... easier to copy and past talking points then doing the research yourself...

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Libby

That is true for many.....but, not all.

I wouldn't say people are not interested in the truth, though. They just believe they already have it.

I disagree ....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

.... if they are right then one would believe that a very young man, who was family schooled, had poor communication skills wrote the Book of Mormon which has successfully help grow our membership to over 17 million now...

Do you believe that Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon and if so why?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

I was a orthodox Christian, I read the BOM and payed more attention to the story and message than the anti critics talking points... why get muddled down in speculation, if you guys can come up with the silver bullet of death, then please do so....

Other than your spiritual witness what reasons do you have to believe that it is a true historical account?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

I disagree ....

You disagree that most LDS are interested in the truth? They are not interested, you are saying?

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

For me it was a combination of several things but ultimately it was the fact that Mormonism doesn't line up with Biblical Christianity.

Yep you're right ... it doesn't ... but it (LDS) does line up with the Saints of the NT and their doctrine as given to them by Christ...

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon and if so why?

No, this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

..this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...

I agree. It's more likely that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, then that Smith wrote it himself.

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Other than your spiritual witness what reasons do you have to believe that it is a true historical account?

Well besides the personal revelation I received there are the many witnesses, 11 others besides JS... a historical account also, have you ever read Lehi’sTrail
From the Valley of Lemuel to Nephi’s Harbor or Lehi in the Wilderness. Interesting read. There are other numerous bits and pieces of evidence that all add up to something here is going on and just may be of great worth to all of mankind...

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Libby

You disagree that most LDS are interested in the truth? They are not interested, you are saying?

Libby, maybe I misunderstood you... I think many and I mean many of those who claim they already have it fought for it by applying themselves to receiving light and knowledge from God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Well besides the personal revelation I received there are the many witnesses, 11 others besides JS... a historical account also, have you ever read Lehi’sTrail
From the Valley of Lemuel to Nephi’s Harbor or Lehi in the Wilderness. Interesting read. There are other numerous bits and pieces of evidence that all add up to something here is going on and just may be of great worth to all of mankind...

I have heard about Lehi's trail. Would you say that this is the best evidence for the Book of Mormon? Is there any other evidence that you think supports that the Nephites and Lamanites were real people groups that lived in the Americas?

[GolfingMormon]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have heard about Lehi's trail. Would you say that this is the best evidence for the Book of Mormon? Is there any other evidence that you think supports that the Nephites and Lamanites were real people groups that lived in the Americas?

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...

Notice, GM, doesn't say, "full of mormon history." Why, because there is none! Just more LDSinc. Double type

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...

I think from your answers it is obvious that you don't have any evidence for the Nepthites or the Lamanites ever living in the Americas. Some Mormons are bothered by this and they end up leaving the church--other LDS don't seem to be phased by this at all because when it comes down to it the whole reason for their belief is a subjective spiritual witness that trumps everything else. Let me ask you--why do you think that there is so much evidence to support the Bible but the Book of Mormon there isn't any evidence for it?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think from your answers it is obvious that you don't have any evidence for the Nepthites or the Lamanites ever living in the Americas. Some Mormons are bothered by this and they end up leaving the church--other LDS don't seem to be phased by this at all because when it comes down to it the whole reason for their belief is a subjective spiritual witness that trumps everything else. Let me ask you--why do you think that there is so much evidence to support the Bible but the Book of Mormon there isn't any evidence for it?

Hold your breath on getting a straight answer. GM is just one more ****hard of hot LDSinc. Air, without a sense of humor no less.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

No, this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...

Joseph plagiarized many different authors from the Bible alone--each having a different writing style.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???

Originally Posted by Billyray

A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible? Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.

http://ce.byu.edu/edweek/handouts/2006/20.pdf

The Writings of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
Victor L. Ludlow
BYU Education Week 2006 BYU

Isaiah P***ages in the Book of Mormon

Of all the prophetic writings available on the Br*** Plates of Laban, Isaiah is the major resource used throughout the Book of Mormon. About one-third of Isaiah’s sixty-six chapters are found in the Book of Mormon.
Two large blocks of Isaiah chapters (2-14 and 48-54) are scattered among four books (1Nephi, 2 Nephi, Mosiah, and 3 Nephi). In addition, Isaiah 29 is quoted in 2 Nephi.

The following chart shows where these twenty-one Isaiah chapters are found in the Book of Mormon:
Isaiah 2-14 in 2 Nephi 12-24 for 13 chapters
Isaiah 29 in 2 Nephi 27 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 48-49 in 1 Nephi 20-21 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 50-51 in 2 Nephi 7-8 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 52 in 3 Nephi 20 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 53 in Mosiah 14 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 54 in 3 Nephi 22 for 1 chapter

Additional Isaiah verses, mostly from the same chapters cited in the chart above (see italics below), are
scattered throughout the Book of Mormon:

Isa 5:26* in 2 Ne 29:2 Isa 11:4 in 2 Ne 30:9
Isa 11:5-9 in 2 Ne 30:11-15 Isa 11:11a* in 2 Ne 25:17a; 29:1b; cf 25:11
Isa 22:13* in 2 Ne 28:7-8 Isa 25:12* in 2 Ne 26:15
Isa 28:10,13* in 2 Ne 28:30 Isa 29:3-4* in 2 Ne 26:15-16
Isa 29:5* in 2 Ne 26:18 Isa 29:14a* in 1 Ne 14:7a; 22:8a; 2 Ne 25:17b; 29:1a
Isa 29:15a* in 2 Ne 28:9b Isa 29:21b* in 2 Ne 28:16a
Isa 40:3* in 1 Ne 10:8 Isa 45:18* in 1 Ne 17:36
Isa 49:22* in 1 Ne 22:8; 2 Ne 6:6 Isa 49:23a* in 1 Ne 22:8b; 2 Ne 10:9a
Isa 49:23 in 2 Ne 6:7 Isa 49:24-26 in 2 Ne 6:16-18
Isa 52:1a* in Moroni 10:31a Isa 52:1-2 in 2 Ne 8:24-25
Isa 52:7* in 1 Ne 13:37; Mosiah 15:14-18 Isa 52:7-10 in Mosiah 12:21-24
Isa 52:8-10 in Mosiah 15:29-31; 3 Ne 16:18-20 Isa 52:10* in 1 Ne 22:10-11
Isa 52:12* in 3 Ne 21:29 Isa 52:13-15* in 3 Ne 21:8-10
Isa 53:8,10* in Mosiah 15:10-11 Isa 54:2b* in Moroni 10:31a
Isa 55:1* in 2 Ne 26:25 Isa 55:1-2 in 2 Ne 9:50-51
* denotes the Isaiah p***ages which are paraphrased in the Book of Mormon.

Originally Posted by GolfingMormon

7% if you really wanted to know!

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

I have looked into this a little bit more. I don't have an exact percentage but 7% is too low. Care to dig a bit deeper?

[Libby]

FromWikipedia:

"The Book of Mormon explicitly quotes the prophet Isaiah. It contains 19 chapters of the King James translation of Isaiah in their entirety, along with parts of a few other chapters.[9] Approximately 30% of Isaiah is found in the Book of Mormon. One source counts 478 verses in the Book of Mormon which are quoted in some form or other from the book of Isaiah."

This gives both sides on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boo...ng_James_Bible

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

FromWikipedia:

"The Book of Mormon explicitly quotes the prophet Isaiah. It contains 19 chapters of the King James translation of Isaiah in their entirety, along with parts of a few other chapters.[9] Approximately 30% of Isaiah is found in the Book of Mormon. One source counts 478 verses in the Book of Mormon which are quoted in some form or other from the book of Isaiah."

This gives both sides on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boo...ng_James_Bible

Looking at Sandra Tanner's book "Joseph Smith’s Plagiarism of the Bible" the plagiarism is widespread throughout the Book of Mormon and not just the Isaiah p***ages.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Looking at Sandra Tanner's book "Joseph Smith’s Plagiarism of the Bible" the plagiarism is widespread throughout the Book of Mormon and not just the Isaiah p***ages.

Yes, exactly. This site does mention that. So, I agree with you, it is much more than 7%.