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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Not really. I didn't know that much about Joseph Smith, when I first joined the church. I came in through the LDS prophet, at that time, Gordon B. Hinckley. He wrote a book called, "Standing for Something"...and I happened to catch some quotes from it on a political board I had been posting on (of all things). I really liked this book (I bought it on Amazon) and consequently liked Gordon Hinckley. That was the first phase. Shortly after I read Hinckley's book, I took a trip to Washington D.C. and stayed in a Marriott Hotel. I knew nothing of "Marriott", at the time. So, I unpack and open the drawer of the bed stand, to put my medication in there...and lo and behold, there is a Book of Mormon in there. I about fainted...not kidding! I thought it was probably a sign or a miracle of some kind....really, I did. *sigh* I put it in my suitcase and brought it home. I still have it. It's all highlighted with notes in the margins. I read it. Had what I thought was a real spiritual experience with it.

    Then, the next "miracle" was that LDS missionaries showed up at my door, while I was reading the book. They had no idea.....
    So how do you NOW explain those unlikely events? Just coincidences? The devil "arranged" for you to read and like the Hinckley book, then arranged for you stay in a Marriott, and then arranged for the missionaries to randomly knock on your door while you were reading the BOM you took with you from the hotel?

  2. #127
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So how do you NOW explain those unlikely events? Just coincidences? The devil "arranged" for you to read and like the Hinckley book, then arranged for you stay in a Marriott, and then arranged for the missionaries to randomly knock on your door while you were reading the BOM you took with you from the hotel?
    Wow, just when I thought no one had even read my long winded response to Alan.

    To be honest, I had a very difficult time dealing with all of this. I had my foot on both sides of the LDS door for a very long time. Found myself feeling very insecure, at times, about leaving the church...not sure I was doing the right thing.

    I don't think there was any one moment that I finally felt released from it. Just a gradual awareness that the church was really not what it presented itself to be....couldn't be, IMHO. Not just church history, but as I read and studied the Bible, even LDS doctrine was really bothering me. That "shelf" that the LDS leaders tell you to put your doubts and questions on, became much too overloaded and finally fell. There was too much evidence, too much doubt, too much cognitive dissonance trying to rectify it all.

    So, all of those things that happened to me, to bring me into the church? I don't really know. It didn't feel like something "evil"....but, it was error in judgement, on my part. I was too anxious for comfort (my father had just p***ed away). The church filled a hole and gave me comfort for a time. Families Forever was a HUGE comfort to me, at that time. But, I realize now that true peace and comfort has to come from the truth about Jesus Christ. I just don't believe the LDS Church has that truth. They have "some" truth and a lot of error mixed in. And, false prophets that created all of that.

  3. #128
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    But you didn't answer my questions. What you used to strongly believe were miracles, you now explain....how?
    Your only alternative options that I see are:

    a) Sheer random coincidences, or
    b) Conspiracy of Satan to arrange for those events to happen to you when they did.

    Or,

    c) Your initial belief was actually the correct one: God was putting people and things into your life to give you the chance to accept true doctrine, including the doctrine of the chance for your family to be together forever.

    What if your father was happy about your initial choice? What if he is, even now, hoping you will return to the teachings that once brought you a lot of joy, peace of mind, and hope for the future?

  4. #129
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    But you didn't answer my questions. What you used to strongly believe were miracles, you now explain....how?
    I did, actually, answer. I just don't really know, other than to speculate. I think it is likely that my focus on Gordon Hinckley caused me to focus on all things LDS. I may have, otherwise, not even noticed the Book of Mormon in that drawer. I had stayed at Marriott Hotels before and never really took notice. I do hesitate to attribute it to something "evil". Mainly, it was my own lack of true investigation into the beliefs of the church (and mainstream Christianity, in general). I grabbed onto a feel goodism and ran with it. I had been very agnostic before that experience and not very well versed (at all!) in the Bible.

    Your only alternative options that I see are:

    a) Sheer random coincidences, or
    b) Conspiracy of Satan to arrange for those events to happen to you when they did.

    Or,

    c) Your initial belief was actually the correct one: God was putting people and things into your life to give you the chance to accept true doctrine, including the doctrine of the chance for your family to be together forever.
    Probably, none of the above.

    What if your father was happy about your initial choice? What if he is, even now, hoping you will return to the teachings that once brought you a lot of joy, peace of mind, and hope for the future?
    Of course, in the beginning, I thought he was happy about it. Now, I think he is just happy that I found the truth about who Jesus really was/is.. I know I will see him and my mother again.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Probably, none of the above.
    I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.

  6. #131
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.
    The devil made them do it?

  7. #132
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.
    Like I said, I don't know. I do think we can attract things to ourselves, though, when we are focusing on a particular thing.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    The devil made them do it?
    That has to be one of the possibilities, along with "The Holy Spirit inspired them to do it."

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    That has to be one of the possibilities, along with "The Holy Spirit inspired them to do it."
    I don't believe the spirit of the LDSinc. No, I know the spirits of the LDSinc. Is not the Holy Ghost of the Holy Bible.
    However I also know you disagree.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I don't believe the spirit of the LDSinc. No, I know the spirits of the LDSinc. Is not the Holy Ghost of the Holy Bible.
    However I also know you disagree.
    But one thing you don't know, is that I know that you are wrong.

  11. #136
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    But one thing you don't know, is that I know that you are wrong.
    I can be more wrong than right, but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth. Leave Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind behind you and begin the path to Salvation through Jesus Christ, and not an org. LDSinc.

  12. #137
    Libby
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    but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth.
    That's right, which is why Joseph Smith could not have possibly been a prophet. (That and for many other reasons).

  13. #138
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    That's right, which is why Joseph Smith could not have possibly been a prophet. (That and for many other reasons).
    Yes, but it is very difficult for anyone to admit they are, or were wrong. Religion is such a personal thing that when one comes to the understanding they have been sucked into a cult it can be devastating to the mind, body and soul, and sometime it can't be repaired.

  14. #139
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Yes, but it is very difficult for anyone to admit they are, or were wrong. Religion is such a personal thing that when one comes to the understanding they have been sucked into a cult it can be devastating to the mind, body and soul, and sometime it can't be repaired.
    You don't have to tell me that. Been there. It is not pleasant.

    But, I do know that "most" true believing LDS are very sincere in the belief that they have the truth. They believe they have proof of that, in the form of a Holy Ghost testimony...and that's difficult to argue with.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    You don't have to tell me that. Been there. It is not pleasant.

    But, I do know that "most" true believing LDS are very sincere in the belief that they have the truth. They believe they have proof of that, in the form of a Holy Ghost testimony...and that's difficult to argue with.
    No matter the religion or belief system, when it comes to faith it is not about arguing or debating. It is about what goes on inside the brain when it comes to all things LDSinc. Cognitive dissonance is working overtime, and I find that most interesting. I don't mind a TBM believing they can become a god and have dominion over a planet or Universe, but to try and say the Holy Bible teaches such is nonsense. However my biggest brain drain is their belief in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind. He was nothing more than a sex addict, and con-not-so-good artist.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I can be more wrong than right, but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth.
    Yes, and one source of my knowledge that you are wrong, IS the Bible. It hasn't failed me yet in telling me how wrong you are about the LDS.

  17. #142
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Yes, and one source of my knowledge that you are wrong, IS the Bible. It hasn't failed me yet in telling me how wrong you are about the LDS.
    Okay, you got me, I just read I can become a god and live on a planet with my many wives. Although my earthly wife just informed me she aint goin along with it.
    I tried to show here in the Bible where it says all this, but I forget where it was, so maybe you can tell me again?

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Okay, you got me, I just read I can become a god and live on a planet with my many wives. Although my earthly wife just informed me she aint goin along with it.
    That's okay, because she probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with you anyhow, right?

    I tried to show here in the Bible where it says all this, but I forget where it was, so maybe you can tell me again?
    Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    That's okay, because she probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with you anyhow, right?


    Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.
    nothing wrong with humor. We all need it from time to time.

  20. #145
    Libby
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    Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.
    Nope, it's not in the Book of Mormon. He would have to go to the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses and the Temple and many LDS writings, to find that stuff.

  21. #146
    Gary_Biblelover
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

    Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim
    James that is a great question to ask. I would say no, and here is why. As a prophet, he fails the test. Start with Deut. 13:1-5 (for context)
    1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2 And the sign or the wonder come to p***, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
    5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

    So he fails the test as being a true prophet.

    Secondly, though the BoM has some very orthodox theology about God, that was then. Later teaching perverts the nature of God (polytheism versus the monotheism of orthodox Christianity)

    Third, the character and conduct of Joseph are definitely NOT in accordance with the word of God. Between his multiple wives, etc.

    Fourth, No true prophet of God will ever contradict what God has already said in his precious word, the Bible.

    I hope this is helpful to you. Thanks for reading.

    Gary

  22. #147
    John T
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    Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    Yes some things.
    How is that possible?

    For example if there is a TBM who who has a live-in girlfriend it is obvious that he is not being "chaste" as a requirement for a Temple recommend. How then can that TBM maintain his temple recommend? Does that mean a LSD redefinition of the word and the concept to be "one live-in girl friend/boy friend at a time"?

    I am sure that such a thing is common, and not hypothetical.

  23. #148
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    How is that possible?

    For example if there is a TBM who who has a live-in girlfriend it is obvious that he is not being "chaste" as a requirement for a Temple recommend. How then can that TBM maintain his temple recommend?
    John--there is no requirement in the Temple Recommend that requires one to believe everything a TBM states--or everything that any prophet or apostle states. What is canonized is LDS scripture--and everything leaders state is not necessarily considered scripture.

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