Does the Father draw ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

I think that most--if not all--posters here on WM would agree that the Father draws men to Christ. But there seems be a consensus on this forum that God draws ALL men to Christ. I am one of the few that believes that the Father draws some--but not all--men to Christ. I am interested in finding out from those who believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ what verses they are using to come to this conclusion.

[Libby]

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)

[Libby]

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Libby]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Libby]

Did you want to discuss these verse, before we go on, Billy?

They seem rather straight up, to me...but, I know Calvinists have explanations for the word "all". The meaning of all is not universal, to them. It means a select group (those whom God is saving).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Did you want to discuss these verse, before we go on, Billy?

Thanks for giving me some of the verses that you use in substantiating your belief that the Father draws all men (all people) to Christ. I am interested in why others hold this belief particularly which verses they are using to substantiate this belief and I am more than happy to just let people share with me all of the verses that they feel supports this position.

[alanmolstad]

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?


and the answer is - "I can of mine own self do nothing"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing men to Christ, and we have already discussed the problems with ***uming things into this particular text that are not there--for example as we previously discussed that the Son died on the cross but the Father did not. But if you want to try and use this verse then let's look at it.

1. There is nothing in this verse that says one thing about the Father drawing all men to Christ.
2. The Son can ONLY do what HE sees his Father doing.
3. Since the Father draws some men but not all men to Christ
4. This would be mean that the Son also draws some but not all men to Himself.

[alanmolstad]

the Son draws ALL men to himself...
The Father draws All men to the Son...
God draws All men to Himself....

However you want to say it, as there is no difference really, and the Son cant draw men to himself unless he sees the father doing it...as the Son cant do anything apart from the father doing it....

Thus my answer is the correct answer.....case-closed!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)

BINGO!

Well done again Ms Libby!
50 Bonus Points for Team Libby.......and you advance in rank to "CalvinSpanker....1st Cl***"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Son draws ALL men to himself...

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Christ said in John 6:44 that the only ones that can come to Him are those who are drawn by the Father and those who are drawn by the Father are raised. Thus if God did indeed draw every single person then every single person would be raised. In order for John 6:44 and John 12:32 to both be true the only explanation would be that God draws a specific group of people to Christ and Christ draws all those given to Him by the Father.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Father draws All men to the Son...

You have yet to show me a single verse to substantiate this claim. In fact John 6:44 disproves this because those who are drawn are raised and we both know that every single person will not be rasied.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God draws All men to Himself....

You have yet to show me a single verse that says that the Father draws all men to Himself.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

BINGO!

Well done again Ms Libby!
50 Bonus Points for Team Libby.......and you advance in rank to "CalvinSpanker....1st Cl***"

Of all of the verses that anyone has provided thus far--how many say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing men to Christ, and we have already discussed the problems with ***uming things into this particular text that are not there--for example as we previously discussed that the Son died on the cross but the Father did not. But if you want to try and use this verse then let's look at it.

1. There is nothing in this verse that says one thing about the Father drawing all men to Christ.
2. The Son can ONLY do what HE sees his Father doing.
3. Since the Father draws some men but not all men to Christ
4. This would be mean that the Son also draws some but not all men to Himself.

What that verse (Alan's verse) is really saying is that the Father and Son act in unison. They are in complete alignment with every thought and act.

I'm not sure why you are making the distinction between the Father drawing people to himself or drawing people to Christ. Is there a difference, in your mind? Why do you keep pointing this out?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thanks for giving me some of the verses that you use in substantiating your belief that the Father draws all men (all people) to Christ. I am interested in why others hold this belief particularly which verses they are using to substantiate this belief and I am more than happy to just let people share with me all of the verses that they feel supports this position.

I think there are many more. I also found some verses in the O.T., but not sure about using the O.T., because God did have a particular race of "chosen people" at that time, and the "all" verses, likely refer to His chosen and not the whole world.

I think, you might say the O.T. is a blue print for interpreting the N.T (in regards to salvation)...?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What that verse (Alan's verse) is really saying is that the Father and Son act in unison. They are in complete alignment with every thought and act.

If they are in unison and since Christ is the one who speaks in both verses then you can only conclude that the Father draws some--but not all-to Christ--and all of those who are drawn are raised.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If they are in unison and since Christ is the one who speaks in both verses then you can only conclude that the Father draws some--but not all-to Christ--and all of those who are drawn are raised.

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think there are many more. I also found some verses in the O.T., but not sure about using the O.T., because God did have a particular race of "chosen people" at that time, and the "all" verses, likely refer to His chosen and not the whole world.

I think, you might say the O.T. is a blue print for interpreting the N.T (in regards to salvation)...?

People in the OT were saved in the same way that they are in the NT in that they place their faith in Christ (for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah). With that said--and given the fact that the majority of people who lived during the OT had never even heard of Christ (i.e coming Messiah)--how can you possibly conclude that the Father has drawn every single person to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Those who are drawn ARE raised. Therefore those who are drawn can't possibly be all men but rather those who are raised.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Those who are drawn ARE raised. Therefore those who are drawn can't possibly be all men but rather those who are raised.

I see. Thanks.

I was reading "draws them" as all...and those who come to the Father will be raised up (not all).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

People in the OT were saved in the same way that they are in the NT in that they place their faith in Christ (for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah). With that said--and given the fact that the majority of people who lived during the OT had never even heard of Christ (i.e coming Messiah)--how can you possibly conclude that the Father has drawn every single person to Christ?

I really don't know. I will have to think about this and do some more reading. What I do know is that God is "just"...so, there has to be a way...and no one may really have an answer to this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I really don't know. I will have to think about this and do some more reading. What I do know is that God is "just"...so, there has to be a way...and no one may really have an answer to this.

God is both "just" and "gracious". If God were "just" and not "gracious" then he would convict all of us because we have all broken the law and are guilty. The same would be true with a human judge. If a person who was guilty of a crime came before him and the evidence was conclusive that this was the case then a "just" judge would convict that person because he is guilty. If a judge let every single person go free we would say that he is not a "just" judge. So how can God show that he is both "just" and "gracious"? He shows His justice by convicting those who are guilty and He shows grace/mercy by pardoning some who are guilty and don't deserve to be set free. I know that looking at this from a human perspective some may say that this is unfair. Paul anticipated this reaction and that is why he addresses it in the following section of scripture. This is an important section of scripture because if it seem as fair from the human perspective there would be no reason to bring this up--in fact it would make no sense.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God is both "just" and "gracious". If God were "just" and not "gracious" then he would convict all of us because we have all broken the law and are guilty. The same would be true with a human judge. If a person who was guilty of a crime came before him and the evidence was conclusive that this was the case then a "just" judge would convict that person because he is guilty. If a judge let every single person go free we would say that he is not a "just" judge. So how can God show that he is both "just" and "gracious"? He shows His justice by convicting those who are guilty and He show grace by pardoning some who don't deserve to be set free. I know that looking at this from a human perspective some may say that this is unfair.

It is unfair, Billy, which is why most people cannot wrap their heads around it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It is unfair, Billy, which is why most people cannot wrap their heads around it.

I understand and I can see how people can feel this way--because as a Mormon I certainly felt this way. And when I first came out of Mormonism I would cl***ify myself in hindsight as Arminian--but I didn't really know the difference between the two at that time. So why did I shift in my beliefs over time? The bottom line answer is over the years of reading the Bible I could not justify my position. I think it was hard for me as well to fully accept this position because using human reasoning it can appear unfair--just like other sections of the Bible for example in the OT when men, women and children are killed--but this is taught and so I accept that this is God's word and that my understanding is not God's understanding and His ways are higher than my ways. That is my answer. Here is Paul's answer to your objection--which is much more blunt.


Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?

thats cuz he draws All men!