Does the Father draw ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan, you posted Romans 1:20 on the other thread....I'm going to bring it here, if you don't mind?

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

This verse made me ask exactly "HOW" God draws people to him. If this verse is any indication, nature or His Creation, is one way he draws us. If that is one way He draws us (and it seems to be true, according to this scripture), then He has to be drawing ALL people....as we all have ability to see the glories of His Creation all around us!

Everyone is given some commandments to live by. We talked a little bit about this in another thread that we all have a basis sense of right and wrong. Also this verse teaches us that there is evidence--for every single person--that there is a God, "being understood from what has been made". In order for God to justly punish someone that person has to be aware of commandments and then break them. If you look at Romans 1:20 this isn't speaking about God drawing men to Christ but rather that every single person knows that there is a God and has an inner knowledge of basic right and wrong and when they break these commandments they are without excuse.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Everyone is given some commandments to live by. We talked a little bit about this in another thread that we all have a basis sense of right and wrong. Also this verse teaches us that there is evidence--for every single person--that there is a God, "being understood from what has been made". In order for God to justly punish someone that person has to be aware of commandments and then break them. If you look at Romans 1:20 this isn't speaking about God drawing men to Christ but rather that every single person knows that there is a God and has an inner knowledge of basic right and wrong and when they break these commandments they are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.

Everyone is given basic commandments and everyone deep down knows that there is a God yet despite this we learn in John 6 that man can't come unto Christ unless drawn by the Father.

Do you think that it is remotely possible that you have this preconceived idea that God draws every single person to Christ and you are searching for any possible shred of evidence to support your preconceived idea AND ignoring the verses that speak directly about those who are drawn by the Father to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.

But these verses are speaking about people who have rejected God--not about people being drawn to Him.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But these verses are speaking about people who have rejected God--not about people being drawn to Him.

Yes, that's right, but, first, they "knew God". Could they have known Him without ever, first, being drawn to Him? Isn't God using His creation to make us all aware of Him? Isn't that the beginning stages of His "drawing"...attracting us to Him?

I'm thinking that man is not even aware of God, until he starts drawing us. Some respond positively and come to Him. Others, even though they get a glimpse and know that He exists...for whatever reasons (their own desires), turn away from Him and go their own way.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan, you posted Romans 1:20 on the other thread....I'm going to bring it here, if you don't mind?

!

I never mind being quoted....however I must confess that I actually did not write the Bible.....

[alanmolstad]

god is drawing every single person ever born, to the cross...

thats is the reason for sending Christ into the world in the first place...

all men are drawn to the cross, for only at the cross will men find forgiveness.


In the life and resurrection of Christ, God is attracting all of humanity to himself.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I never mind being quoted....however I must confess that I actually did not write the Bible.....

Thanks for confirming that. ;-)

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks for confirming that. ;-)

We're not here to discuss the Christian doctrine of election with a Campbellite and someone who has embraced the New Age. Why don't you guys take your love fest with Arminianism elsewhere?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

We're not here to discuss the Christian doctrine of election with a Campbellite and someone who has embraced the New Age. Why don't you guys take your love fest with Arminianism elsewhere?

You really do like to invent things for other people to believe dont you...

it must save time

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You really do like to invent things for other people to believe dont you...

it must save time

I just put up a new thread on Campbellism Enjoy!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?


and the answer is - "I can of mine own self do nothing"

"I can of mine own self do nothing"

This is where we can KNOW that though the cross the Father is drawing all men to Himself....




Now Im not sure what the Calvinists are thinking?.......
Im not sure why when the topic comes up about the father reaching out to all people though the cross the average Calvinist has such a cow?

But it is a clear teaching of the New Testament that in Christ the Lord God was offering salvation to all people....

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think that most--if not all--posters here on WM would agree that the Father draws men to Christ. But there seems be a consensus on this forum that God draws ALL men to Christ. I am one of the few that believes that the Father draws some--but not all--men to Christ. I am interested in finding out from those who believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ what verses they are using to come to this conclusion.

Why are you posting about the cult of Calvinism in the Mormon forum.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

Why are you posting about the cult of Calvinism in the Mormon forum.

When you get to know about old Billy, you start to see that with him EVERYTHING centers around his love of Calvinism....

Thus regardless of whatever topic he happens to be posting on you can trust that sooner or later that topic will see the shadow of Calvinism looming over it....

[alanmolstad]

I think the issue Billy had with people saying that "god draws all men" is that according to Billy, once God starts to draw you he is stuck and he has to also save you.

(in other words "in for a penny, in for a pound")

This puts Billy in a corner, for if he says "god draws all men" then he also has to say "All men are saved" and that he rejects.
This must be why Billy tries so hard to not have God drawing all men because it then lets God off the hook for not saving all men.